How can randomness possibly exist?
 

When I think of the universe, I think of the laws of science, and randomness doesn't seem possible to me. Some people may use the double slit experiment to prove randomness exists, but that is simply something we cannot determine, and is not necessarily something that cannot be determined with more knowledge.

I think of the universe the same way I think of a computer program. The universe has a set of laws (or algorithms) that determine how the matter that the universe is made up of moves about. Just like an algorithm, someone can look at the "script" of the universe and predict what will happen next.

However, it is impossible for computers to do anything random. Sure, they can look at a super accurate clock, or use a huge set of predetermined numbers, but that is simply using outside sources to create the illusion of randomness.

It doesn't make sense to me that the universe has any tool to possibly create randomness. If you fully understand all the laws of the universe, and can map every particle that exists in the universe, then you must also be able to predict what will happen to each one of those particles. I can't think of how this could not be true.

This is why I do not believe in free will.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't make sense to me that the universe has any tool to possibly create randomness. If you fully understand all the laws of the universe, and can map every particle that exists in the universe, then you must also be able to predict what will happen to each one of those particles. I can't think of how this could not be true.

This is why I do not believe in free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the second post in a row I've read this morning where the argument is made along the lines of "it doesn't make sense to me ... therefore.." It's gotta be me misreading these things ( I hope).

At present the evidence is that at a quatum level there IS randomness, so to base an argument on "I can't think how .." seems to leap ahead of the evidence. Now, with the M-string brane theories perhaps some hidden variables will show up ( there's been some strong cases made that they can't show up ) but at this stage I have to stay agnostic about randomness or not - evidence so far is it's random at the quantum level, my mini-einsteinian brain says ..huh?!

If I've misinterpreted your claim, I apologize ZJ,
Daniel Dennett has an interesting book "Freedom Evolves" that discusses human freewill in a universe with determination in it. Worth a read.

luckyme,
if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I do not believe in free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit off topic - It's hard to make a case for free will in a universe with randomness, also, perhaps moreso.

luckyme

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the second post in a row I've read this morning where the argument is made along the lines of "it doesn't make sense to me ... therefore.." It's gotta be me misreading these things ( I hope).

[/ QUOTE ]

In this post I am stating what I believe with my limited knowledge, and am not making any conclusions. I think it is likely that a reply to my post will change my opinion drastically. I am seeking knowledge in this thread.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

My exact thoughts. And i mean exact. I have a hard time imagining something random can really exist.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
and am not making any conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sorry, so you haven't decided to believe we don't have free will. good. we can talk :-)

I don't relate well to the concept of 'believe in', more along the lines of "at this point my knowledge of the evidence seems to point to XYZ". With free will, as interesting at it is to discuss, if we found out we didn't have it we'd not do anything different. hmmmm.
We seem to have no choice but to act as if we have it, however it works at whatever level of quantum or otherwise.

One, of many, ways to approach it is from the question .. why would this experience of having free will exist if it was serving no purpose for us? To use the horrid computer analogy, we have some pretty impressive computer programs solving complex problems, we've never felt the need to program them with a 'feeling' of free will. Is there some level of complex self-referential intelligence that an illusion of free will emerges and it doesn't have to be programmed in?

Free will suffers from the ill-formed question problem, I don't know ( outside of Dennett's work) any clear statement of what free will is in any specifically useful way, and until that happens it seems premature to try and definitively answer 'does It exist?'. It may well exist if we define it in some meaningful way. Randomness doesn't seem to help, but..?

luckyme, .... I had this extra ink..

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

I started a thread about this same topic a couple of weeks ago. It's here in case you're interested.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and am not making any conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sorry, so you haven't decided to believe we don't have free will. good. we can talk :-)

I don't relate well to the concept of 'believe in', more along the lines of "at this point my knowledge of the evidence seems to point to XYZ". With free will, as interesting at it is to discuss, if we found out we didn't have it we'd not do anything different. hmmmm.
We seem to have no choice but to act as if we have it, however it works at whatever level of quantum or otherwise.

One, of many, ways to approach it is from the question .. why would this experience of having free will exist if it was serving no purpose for us? To use the horrid computer analogy, we have some pretty impressive computer programs solving complex problems, we've never felt the need to program them with a 'feeling' of free will. Is there some level of complex self-referential intelligence that an illusion of free will emerges and it doesn't have to be programmed in?

Free will suffers from the ill-formed question problem, I don't know ( outside of Dennett's work) any clear statement of what free will is in any specifically useful way, and until that happens it seems premature to try and definitively answer 'does It exist?'. It may well exist if we define it in some meaningful way. Randomness doesn't seem to help, but..?

luckyme, .... I had this extra ink..

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but this thread was not meant to be about free will. I should have left that line out of my OP.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

[/ QUOTE ]
how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

[/ QUOTE ]
how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

If randomness exists, then our future has not been predetermined.

Again, free will was NOT the point of my OP.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who said free will is random? I make my own decisions, but I always have a reason for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If our future is predetermined (which I believe it is), there is no free will. If nothing is random, then our future has already been determined.

[/ QUOTE ]
how could randomness change anything about free will?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

If randomness exists, then our future has not been predetermined.

Again, free will was NOT the point of my OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.

Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

chez

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

You really need to read up on Quantum Theory.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am saying that free will cannot exist if our futures have aleady been determined. I never implied that the converse is true.

[ QUOTE ]
Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? It seems to me that this is purely an issue of scientific advancements. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by metaphysical, but it sounds like you are trying to turn this into a philisophical question when it is purely a scientific questin.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to read up on Quantum Theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any recommendations? I recently bought A Brief History of Time , but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Will that help?

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

"Randomness" only comes in during the measurement process. In quantum mechanics, states evolve deterministically. The point, though, is that the measurement process only appears random if you make the measurement. If we put Sklansky in a box and tell him to measure some quantum mechanical system, the rest of us outside the box will describe the combined system "Sklansky+system" evolving in a completely deterministic way -- it is only Skalansky that sees a random "wave function collapse."

If the universe as a whole can be described by a pure quantum mechanical state, there is a very real sense in which there is no randomness, since there is no "external observer." However, we as humans, described ourselves by quantum mechanical subsystems of the universe, will always see randomness when performing measurements on other subsystems.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Randomness" only comes in during the measurement process. In quantum mechanics, states evolve deterministically. The point, though, is that the measurement process only appears random if you make the measurement. If we put Skalansky in a box and tell him to measure some quantum mechanical system, the rest of us outside the box will describe the combined system "Skalansky+system" evolving in a completely deterministic way -- it is only Skalansky that sees a random "wave function collapse."

If the universe as a whole can be described by a pure quantum mechanical state, there is a very real sense in which there is no randomness, since there is no "external observer." However, we as humans, described ourselves by quantum mechanical subsystems of the universe, will always see randomness when performing measurements on other subsystems.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to equate a lack of knowledge with randomness. I understand what that dude's Uncertainty Principle is (although I forget his name), but I don't see how it relates to the question at hand, other than the fact that it will hinder progress towards the answer to my question.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I'm in the wrong thread but the lack of predetermination doesn't help with free-will. If stuff happens at random then its not am atter of will at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am saying that free will cannot exist if our futures have aleady been determined. I never implied that the converse is true.

[ QUOTE ]
Back OT, the existence of randomness is a metaphysical question, we have no way of telling if things happen at random or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? It seems to me that this is purely an issue of scientific advancements. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by metaphysical, but it sounds like you are trying to turn this into a philisophical question when it is purely a scientific questin.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, there's no scientific experiment that could prove that things happen by random.

Suppose an experiment that provides evidence of randomness. Now suppose that the universe is a simulation running on a deterministic computer that uses a randomising algorithm. There is no way to distinguish the two.

chez

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to equate a lack of knowledge with randomness. I understand what that dude's Uncertainty Principle is (although I forget his name), but I don't see how it relates to the question at hand, other than the fact that it will hinder progress towards the answer to my question.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I thought you might want to know how quantum mechanics actually treats randomness (since that is the subject everyone will bring up as soon as you bring up this topic), but if it's just going to "hinder your progress" -- fine, I'll shut up.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I think of the universe, I think of the laws of science, and randomness doesn't seem possible to me. Some people may use the double slit experiment to prove randomness exists, but that is simply something we cannot determine, and is not necessarily something that cannot be determined with more knowledge.

I think of the universe the same way I think of a computer program. The universe has a set of laws (or algorithms) that determine how the matter that the universe is made up of moves about. Just like an algorithm, someone can look at the "script" of the universe and predict what will happen next.

However, it is impossible for computers to do anything random. Sure, they can look at a super accurate clock, or use a huge set of predetermined numbers, but that is simply using outside sources to create the illusion of randomness.

It doesn't make sense to me that the universe has any tool to possibly create randomness. If you fully understand all the laws of the universe, and can map every particle that exists in the universe, then you must also be able to predict what will happen to each one of those particles. I can't think of how this could not be true.

This is why I do not believe in free will.

[/ QUOTE ]So does Pi not exist, or is there a pattern to it's digits?

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So does Pi not exist, or is there a pattern to it's digits?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not random. Each digit is important and non-random. Pi has a specific meaning. It may look random, but it most certainly is not.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

Hello Zee,

With regards to randomness, consider the following situation:

We have one Deuterium atom (An atom with one proton and one neutron). Deutrium is radioactive, and we want to know when this atom will decay.

Using our current model understanding of neuclear physics, we can calculate the probability that this atom will decay whithin any given period of time.

However there is no known experiment that could allow us to look at the atom and say exactly when it will decay. Furthermore, It is currently beleived that there is no possible experiment that can look at what's going on inside the atom, in order to predict when it will decay. so if you had two atoms that were indistinduishable, under any conceivable observation, and subjected to the same outside forces, they could, and most likely would decay at different times.

Clearly if the above is true, then neuclear decay is an example of a random process. Of course, it is always possible that there is something going on that we do not understand, but our current understanding of the science does not suggest that any future discovery will change the above view of neuclear deacy.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Each digit is important

[/ QUOTE ] Probably a very good definition of random.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

usually when a person takes a position and essentially states that it could not be changed by rational argument, we call that "faith". you are obviously not qualified to argue your position on scientific grounds, yet you are virtually certain that no counter-argument could sucessfully be made. now that is faith of the most non-rational kind. it is my belief that
true, abiding faith must be non-rational. that is, not subject to the scrutiny of reason in the eyes of those having that faith. getting back to relevant cases: given your faith in this matter, you have no poker skills as the term is commonly understood. you are simply the vehicle through which the hands are played. traditionally, taking credit would be called "vanity". sorry this has to be so compact, w/out every detail spelled out. i have to go cook some pasta...................b

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
usually when a person takes a position and essentially states that it could not be changed by rational argument, we call that "faith". you are obviously not qualified to argue your position on scientific grounds, yet you are virtually certain that no counter-argument could sucessfully be made. now that is faith of the most non-rational kind. it is my belief that
true, abiding faith must be non-rational. that is, not subject to the scrutiny of reason in the eyes of those having that faith. getting back to relevant cases: given your faith in this matter, you have no poker skills as the term is commonly understood. you are simply the vehicle through which the hands are played. traditionally, taking credit would be called "vanity". sorry this has to be so compact, w/out every detail spelled out. i have to go cook some pasta...................b

[/ QUOTE ]

You're reading comprehension needs work. I am not even remotely close to certain on the position that I stated in my OP. I understand that I am not very knowledgeable on this subject, and that is why I am asking these questions. I am here to learn.

Perhaps you didn't read my second post in this thread which I thought I made very clear:
[ QUOTE ]
In this post I am stating what I believe with my limited knowledge, and am not making any conclusions. I think it is likely that a reply to my post will change my opinion drastically. I am seeking knowledge in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to ask, what is your problem?

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello Zee,

With regards to randomness, consider the following situation:

We have one Deuterium atom (An atom with one proton and one neutron). Deutrium is radioactive, and we want to know when this atom will decay.

Using our current model understanding of neuclear physics, we can calculate the probability that this atom will decay whithin any given period of time.

However there is no known experiment that could allow us to look at the atom and say exactly when it will decay. Furthermore, It is currently beleived that there is no possible experiment that can look at what's going on inside the atom, in order to predict when it will decay. so if you had two atoms that were indistinduishable, under any conceivable observation, and subjected to the same outside forces, they could, and most likely would decay at different times.

Clearly if the above is true, then neuclear decay is an example of a random process. Of course, it is always possible that there is something going on that we do not understand, but our current understanding of the science does not suggest that any future discovery will change the above view of neuclear deacy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Husky. This was the type of response I was looking for. Atom decay intertwines perfectly w/ the subject at hand, and I will certainly do some research on this subject in the near future.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]

We have one Deuterium atom (An atom with one proton and one neutron). Deutrium is radioactive, and we want to know when this atom will decay.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Wikipedia , Deuterium is stable.

Also, apparently Atomic Clocks use the speed at which atoms decay to measure time. To date, they are the most accurate clocks we have. [ QUOTE ]
National standards agencies maintain an accuracy of 10-9 seconds per day, and a precision equal to the frequency of the radio transmitter pumping the maser.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as 9,192,631,770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the Cesium-133 atom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the article that the above quotes are from: Atomic Clock , it sounds like this is a pretty accurate science with no randomness.

Edit: Ok, I'm confused. Radioactive Decay states [ QUOTE ]
the decay of an unstable nucleus (radionuclide) is entirely random and it is impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay. However, it is equally likely to decay at any time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What am I misreading in the Atomic Clock entry?

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

Ok, I'm slow. Apparently the atomic clock does not measure time based on the decay of atoms, but instead based on the wavelike movement of electrons inside the atom. Can someone just confirm this for me to make sure I'm understanding it correctly?

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

watch this series.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

As far as books go, how knoweldgable on math/physics are you?

I would read an elegant universe

Melch

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm slow. Apparently the atomic clock does not measure time based on the decay of atoms, but instead based on the wavelike movement of electrons inside the atom. Can someone just confirm this for me to make sure I'm understanding it correctly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. When an electron in an atom drops to a lower energy level, radiation is emitted. That radiation has a specific frequency. Combined with the (constant) speed of light, this provides the most accurate known measures of time.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as books go, how knoweldgable on math/physics are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I took AP physics and AP calc in high school, but only went to college for a semester before dropping out.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

We have one Deuterium atom (An atom with one proton and one neutron). Deutrium is radioactive, and we want to know when this atom will decay.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Wikipedia , Deuterium is stable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sorry, I was under the impression that deuterium was radioactive, (just with a verry long halflife). But I havn't looked at that stuff in a long time. If i am wrong (which it appears i am, just substitute any other radioactive atom into my first post and my point should work fine.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

people have a problem when they take you at your word? perhaps taking a gratuitous swipe at my reading comprehension is not the way to go (you wouldn't know)...........maybe some writing practice is in order. how's about something like "i don't know if there is free will or not, but my studies and musings have me thinking that there is not". there, now that leaves you lots of 'outs' as you poker champions like to say...............b

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

First of all...deuterium is incredibly stable. It is in no way radioactive. Without that stability...none of us would be here.

I am looking at the definitions of random and I was wondering which one you think is impossible.

1. Having no specific pattern, purpose or objective.
2. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.

Definition 2 is the one we generally talk about in physics. If there is a white marble and a black marble in a bag and we choose one of them without looking, there is a 50% chance that the marble in our hand is black and a 50% chance it is white. Let's do a gedanken experiment. If I choose a marble from the bag(and replace it) 100 times, is there any way you can predict in advance how many times I am going to choose white? If I do the experiment twice, am I going to pick white the same number of times? The rules of the experiment are the same everytime yet there is no way I can predict what the outcome is going to be.

If this demonstrates randomness to you that is good. If not I can come up with more examples...

Thanks,
-J

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all...deuterium is incredibly stable. It is in no way radioactive. Without that stability...none of us would be here.

I am looking at the definitions of random and I was wondering which one you think is impossible.

1. Having no specific pattern, purpose or objective.
2. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.

Definition 2 is the one we generally talk about in physics. If there is a white marble and a black marble in a bag and we choose one of them without looking, there is a 50% chance that the marble in our hand is black and a 50% chance it is white. Let's do a gedanken experiment. If I choose a marble from the bag(and replace it) 100 times, is there any way you can predict in advance how many times I am going to choose white? If I do the experiment twice, am I going to pick white the same number of times? The rules of the experiment are the same everytime yet there is no way I can predict what the outcome is going to be.

If this demonstrates randomness to you that is good. If not I can come up with more examples...

Thanks,
-J

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that either of these defintions are accurate to what my OP is about. The second one certianly isn't.

I guess unpredictability given infinite knowledge is what I'm talking about. I don't think such a thing exists. I think the entire outcome of all the particles in the universe has already been determined. We certainly don't have the knowledge to predict that outcome, but hypothetically, the answer exists.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

Can I ask where you get this "feeling" from. I want to really understand what you're saying so I can argue effectively.

If you re-read my earlier post, I tried to create a simple universe. This universe contains a bag, two marbles, and me. I have "infinite knowledge" of the system right? All I have to do know is show that there is something about the system that I cannot predict. I chose to use the result of 100 choices of the marble from the bag.

Alternatively I could show that there is no such thing as "infinite knowledge." You talked about the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle before. One version of this principle states that if you know one thing really precisely(position) then that knowledge comes at the expense of the precision of knowledge of another thing(momentum). In effect, no observer can know everything about a system to begin with, so there is no challenge to the existence of randomness.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess unpredictability given infinite knowledge is what I'm talking about. I don't think such a thing exists. I think the entire outcome of all the particles in the universe has already been determined. We certainly don't have the knowledge to predict that outcome, but hypothetically, the answer exists.

[/ QUOTE ] Infinite knowledge is not possible. We know this to be true. Infinite knowledge, of course, would forbid randomness. Your problem is not with randomness but your belief that infinite knowledge is possible.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At present the evidence is that at a quatum level there IS randomness, so to base an argument on "I can't think how .." seems to leap ahead of the evidence. Now, with the M-string brane theories perhaps some hidden variables will show up ( there's been some strong cases made that they can't show up )

[/ QUOTE ]

I talked to a physics major who's studying quantum right now, and the way he discussed it, it said it is more likely that the randomness is merely apparent due to the lack of precision in our measurement tools, and hidden variables. Even in the scientific world, the jury is still out.

I'm not saying that there isn't true randomness at the quantum level. I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that I don't know, and that you probably don't either. Quantum physics gets tossed around like a hacky-sack whenever there's a deterministic argument by people who really don't know dick about it.

On both occasions when I held a discussion group IRL on free will vs determinism, it ALWAYS boiled down to the libertarians saying "science says I'm right" and the determinists saying "no it doesn't."

It will be a VERY long time, if ever, that science conclusively proves the existence of randomness that is not attributable to lack of precision in measuring tools. I think we need to accept that this is something that is a little beyond our comprehension.

Re: How can randomness possibly exist?
 

Not to insult your friend, but...

Who is this physics major and how the hell is he passing quantum with the thought anywhere near his brain that the randomness discussed in that class has anything to do with a measuring device...

There is uncertainty in every measurement. If I have a ruler with 1mm an acceptable amount of uncertainty in my measurement is .5mm. There is uncertainty inherent in every measuring device. It has to do with how graduated your device is.

This experimental uncertainty is very different from the randomness implied by quantum mechanics. The uncertainty principle is not stated, it is derived. This says that no matter how graduated your instrument is, there is a limit to the precision of an instrument that has nothing to do with the instrument but with the universe in which the instrument exists.