1010 in a tough river spot
 

Every player in this hand is pretty bad. The first two limpers are horrendous, and the button is a tight-ish preflop player (25%) but majorly overaggressive postflop. The reason I just called preflop was to be able to CR the field on a low card board, as the button would always bet if checked to him.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, 2 folds[/i]</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 players)</font>

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets</font>,Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, MP2 raises</font>, Hero ...

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

You gotta raise preflop and I would say check call the river.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You gotta raise preflop and I would say check call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with the PF raise but it's not what I want to talk about this hand either.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You gotta raise preflop and I would say check call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with the PF raise but it's not what I want to talk about this hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money.

i would fold to the river raise... i guess he has the nuts, what else would play this way?

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You gotta raise preflop and I would say check call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with the PF raise but it's not what I want to talk about this hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money.

i would fold to the river raise... i guess he has the nuts, what else would play this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

again, I disagree. all a raise PF does a build a pot for chasing overcards. it's not giving away money because the extra money that goes in preflop that exploits your equity edge is lost (and then some) to the entire pots lost to chasing overcards in a big field of fish. I am 100% comfortable with the PF decision here. it's not the aspect of the hand I am seeking advice on.

as for the river, I don't have to be right very often here. isn't it a clear call based on pot odds alone?

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

I think you need to fold this river. Sounds like to me he either waited to bump his flush or he hit two pair. This is not something you can beat the majority of the time IMO.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to fold this river. Sounds like to me he either waited to bump his flush or he hit two pair. This is not something you can beat the majority of the time IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly don't need to beat him a majority of the time to call.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

You are correct, but do you really think that you win this 1-10? What hand do you put him on that you beat?

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct, but do you really think that you win this 1-10? What hand do you put him on that you beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots. A pure bluff, 79, 89, 99, low pockets, ace high ... he's a dope. Who knows what he's raising? Don't I beat him 1 in 10 times? Or am I out to lunch here.

What do you think he has?

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

If these players really are as bad as you say they are then I guess the call is alright. THere is a difference between being bad and over aggressive though. Even bad players pick up hands sometimes. I think villian has a flush and waited until now to raise it. He did call two cold on the flop which screams flush draw to me. Two pair is also a possibility.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

FWIW I thought the board had 4567 on it with three spades which is why I check called. With the board as it is I go with a bet-call line.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every player in this hand is pretty bad. The first two limpers are horrendous,

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, HERO CALLSS?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is bad.

if those first players are tight, or play well, AND the button is over aggro and bets any flop when checked to him then you can make an argument for not raising.

but if you opponens play 74o and the like pf then you absolutely HAVE TO RAISE preflop. its just not close.

this is the reason you raise here with no reads also. if you are wrong and your oppoents play well, youv'e cost yourself a little by increasing the pot size for them to call down correctly, but still made money PF so its still close. if you are correct and your opponents suck, you've made a lot of money. so raise as a default, and DEFINATELY raise if the opponents play badly.

on the river, unless this guy is capable of bluff raising a flush card with something like 87 its a clear fold.

he cold called 2 bets on the flop, called the turn, and raised the river.

a payoff is ok if you think he's capable of the above stated scare card bluff. but id lay odds he has the flush here. i dont know if id lay 10:1, so maybe its a call based on my reluctance to lay those odds...you did say he played bad and that increases the probability that he can have a bluff here, but seriously, you c'r the flop and bet the turn, does he really expect you to fold? yea, maybe id lay those odds, in the heat of battle i fold this.

Barron

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every player in this hand is pretty bad. The first two limpers are horrendous,

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, HERO CALLSS?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is bad.

if those first players are tight, or play well, AND the button is over aggro and bets any flop when checked to him then you can make an argument for not raising.

but if you opponens play 74o and the like pf then you absolutely HAVE TO RAISE preflop. its just not close.

this is the reason you raise here with no reads also. if you are wrong and your oppoents play well, youv'e cost yourself a little by increasing the pot size for them to call down correctly, but still made money PF so its still close. if you are correct and your opponents suck, you've made a lot of money. so raise as a default, and DEFINATELY raise if the opponents play badly.

on the river, unless this guy is capable of bluff raising a flush card with something like 87 its a clear fold.

he cold called 2 bets on the flop, called the turn, and raised the river.

a payoff is ok if you think he's capable of the above stated scare card bluff. but id lay odds he has the flush here. i dont know if id lay 10:1, so maybe its a call based on my reluctance to lay those odds...you did say he played bad and that increases the probability that he can have a bluff here, but seriously, you c'r the flop and bet the turn, does he really expect you to fold? yea, maybe id lay those odds, in the heat of battle i fold this.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already explained why I didn't raise preflop. Please don't make it out like it's a total no-brainer, because it is not. It's a very close play, and I went the way I did because of the opponents I was in against. I wanted to preserve my ability to make them face 2 cold on the flop, and I did that.

As for the river, it's another close decision in retrospect. I called, for what it's worth. I thought I was good about 20% of the time here, so in the heat of battle it wasn't close to me. That's why I posted the hand.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's obviously not a no-brainer decision. In this case I was in the worst position with a super aggressive postflop player on the button and limpers who would chase overs. It was a perfect spot to limp, because with a favourable board I would be able to force overcard draws into a serious error. I actually think raising here would have been a suboptimal play, by a large margin.

Anyways, the river was the interesting street to me, and has been discussed a bit. I feel it's a clear call, even in retrospect.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the phenomenon you describe is quite common, and true, it is also true that their are situations where certain decisions are horrible. Folding AA preflop, mucking the nuts on the river, etc. While our society breeds us to be fluffy happy love bunnies, where everyones opinion is good and right, in poker (as in almost all things in life) there are right and wrong answers.

Checking this river is wrong. Yes you may induce a bluff, yes you may be beat, but based on the information we have, checking this river is very wrong. Betting the river for value is one of the main keys to beating loose limit hold'em games. It is as important as decent preflop play, which is also very important.

And while you may say not raising with 10-10 here is an ok play, it is not. Yes, not raising preflop may put you in some better spots post flop, this is true, but raising preflop exploits a large equity gap. It is not unlikely that some of your opponents will have under pairs, 1 over 1 under card, 2 undercards, or 2 overcards that will hit the flop only 1/3.

I know you don't want to debate the preflop play, and that's fine, but don't say it's "ok" and expect that to go unchallenged. If you want to ignore it, then ignore it.

Your comment about the polarization of arguments on this board (and in every aspect of debate, I think) is spot on. Undoubtably, I do a bit of it as well, and it's something to think about.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is a horrible play. I would pay this off, you have a decently strong hand and a big pot, I don't really need to think any further.

(PF is horrible but you dont care)

[/ QUOTE ]

People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here. Neither checking nor betting the river is horrible. Preflop is not horrible. Nothing in this hand is horrible. I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the phenomenon you describe is quite common, and true, it is also true that their are situations where certain decisions are horrible. Folding AA preflop, mucking the nuts on the river, etc. While our society breeds us to be fluffy happy love bunnies, where everyones opinion is good and right, in poker (as in almost all things in life) there are right and wrong answers.

Checking this river is wrong. Yes you may induce a bluff, yes you may be beat, but based on the information we have, checking this river is very wrong. Betting the river for value is one of the main keys to beating loose limit hold'em games. It is as important as decent preflop play, which is also very important.

And while you may say not raising with 10-10 here is an ok play, it is not. Yes, not raising preflop may put you in some better spots post flop, this is true, but raising preflop exploits a large equity gap. It is not unlikely that some of your opponents will have under pairs, 1 over 1 under card, 2 undercards, or 2 overcards that will hit the flop only 1/3.

I know you don't want to debate the preflop play, and that's fine, but don't say it's "ok" and expect that to go unchallenged. If you want to ignore it, then ignore it.

Your comment about the polarization of arguments on this board (and in every aspect of debate, I think) is spot on. Undoubtably, I do a bit of it as well, and it's something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, but I should point out that against the ranges I am up against here, I am not exploiting a "large" equity gap by raising. They have a wide range, but I am not only a dog to the field, I am likely a coinflip against at least one hand. The best thing to do in that spot, in my opinion, was to make sure they made a huge flop error, because none of them would have been making an error by calling a raise preflop, and I would have been making subsequent chasing correct for almost any two cards with a pf raise. The goal was to win the pot, and sometimes the best way to do that is not to exploit an immediate small edge so as to preserve a later, larger one.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first two limpers are horrendous, and the button is a tight-ish preflop player (25%) but majorly overaggressive postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think raising here would have been a suboptimal play, by a large margin.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have 2 horrendous players limping and a super aggro limping(which usually means he has crap). This would be anything but suboptimal not even close to a large margin. This is an easy raise.

You have a "super aggressive" on the button. You can raise this preflop, check to the button and he'd likely still bet figuring you missed with your AK so you can raise.

You can also wait and c/r the turn if the guy is likely to bet 2 streets in a row (if he's really that "super aggro").

b

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]
HPFAPBLAHBLAHBLAH

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

[/ QUOTE ]

HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]
HPFAPBLAHBLAHBLAH

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'll take the advice of that book over anything posted on here. If you simply dimiss it like this, I'll certainly take its advice over anything you post.

And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop. And I run the risk of simply being chased if I raise preflop and bet out, because I have made it correct for virtually any draw to chase. My goal was to win this pot, this hand, and not raising preflop was the best way to do that.

I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho. I don't care if anyone disagrees, unless they have some awesome reasoning I have not yet thought about. I don't think they do though, and your argument isn't anything I hadn't considered. I don't think it's persuasive given this particular situation, and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if your description of the button is correct. "Super aggros" tend to bet whenever checked to. It's what they do and one big reason you can take advantage of them when you have position on them.

Maybe when you get to the section of HEPFAP around p 170 you'll see something different as far as postflop play in some big pots. Or even the overpair section in SSHE may give you some ideas. (especially the TT overpair hand) You think these ideas are new? They've been hashed out point by point long ago.

[ QUOTE ]
My goal was to win this pot, this hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

You're goal shouldn't be just to win a pot, but to win a quality pot. Poker isn't about just winning pots. There's a whole 3 limpers. You're really that concerned with a small 4sb pot?

[ QUOTE ]
and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this situation really is that simple. Especially given your description of the players.

[ QUOTE ]
I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, much to the dissatisfaction of many quality players on here.

b

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

Preflop: I thought your reasoning for not raising TT was very sound. You set up a nice flop checkraise and you executed. The only thing thats worth mentioning is would the button bet the flop if checked to if you did raise preflop and checked the flop? If this is so, then I like raising better than calling, but I certainly have no qualms with the way you played your hand and I too would make this play with TT or JJ agaisnt specifically 3 limpers. Against 2 limpers I would raise every time, and against 4 or more limpers I would raise every time for its set value, but against specifically 3 limpers and an aggressive late position player, I think calling with JJ or TT is an excellent play in my opinion, but if I felt that I could still pull off the checkraise postflop even if I did raise preflop I would go ahead and raise. About the river, this is a tough spot, and against most opponents this is a fold, but if you view your opponent to be tricky or just stupid this is an easy call given the pot odds.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if your description of the button is correct. "Super aggros" tend to bet whenever checked to. It's what they do and one big reason you can take advantage of them when you have position on them.

Maybe when you get to the section of HEPFAP around p 170 you'll see something different as far as postflop play in some big pots. Or even the overpair section in SSHE may give you some ideas. (especially the TT overpair hand) You think these ideas are new? They've been hashed out point by point long ago.

[ QUOTE ]
My goal was to win this pot, this hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

You're goal shouldn't be just to win a pot, but to win a quality pot. Poker isn't about just winning pots. There's a whole 3 limpers. You're really that concerned with a small 4sb pot?

[ QUOTE ]
and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this situation really is that simple. Especially given your description of the players.

[ QUOTE ]
I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, much to the dissatisfaction of many quality players on here.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're wrong and I have explained why, but you won't give up, so I will.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here...I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, you just used the word "dreadful" in Josh W's 30/60 AK thread to describe a play that I think Josh explained pretty well.

What's the difference?

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really need to think any further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? There are some good players disagreeing with you.

You ALWAYS need to think more.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here...I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, you just used the word "dreadful" in Josh W's 30/60 AK thread to describe a play that I think Josh explained pretty well.

What's the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think not calling that river was dreadful. It was, imho, a highly -EV play, and was moreover a very, very easy decision. Those two things combined make it dreadful.

Just out of curiosity, do you always go back 3 pages to find posts that you hope to embarrass people with to win arguments on this board? Or is this just a special case? Because either way it's kind of pathetic, man.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

It's kind of a special case. I have a good memory, and I had responded in that other thread right before you did. So not only was it was on my mind, but right after I saw your response, I read this thread, and thought, "Hmmm. Seems like the same thing."

I mean, you're dismissive of intelligent players saying "River fold is close" on the other thread because you think it's dreadful. Yet when people say "Not raising TT in the SB is horrible" you claim that it can't be horrible and everyone is just exaggerating to make a point. I don't think they are; I think a lot of people really think you're missing significant value by completing TT.

For the record, I think you should raise the TT and I also think Josh should call, but I don't think his error is much worse than yours.

I don't know what you're talking about with the "3 pages" thing. If this thread was three pages back, I didn't realize it. I probably found it because I wanted to see what that guy was talking about when he mentioned your not raising TT from the SB, since IMO that is often a very standard play.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

every single good poster in this forum has digested HPFAP and moved past it. you're better off listening to the posters than that book.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're wrong and I have explained why, but you won't give up, so I will.


[/ QUOTE ]

you are indeed a gentleman gary.

the problem is, Dom already detailed that pure gentlemen get no pussy, and in this case, lose EV.

you're logic in the above sentance is indicative of a few possibilities.

1) the posters who are arguing with you are incorrect and simply wont grasp or understand your explanations no matter how hard you try so you give up.

2) bernie not giving up means that he is obstinate and wrong at the same time and that you are again, correct to give up.

3) you are right but simply cannot explain your point so you give up.

4) YOU are the one who does not understand what is going on here to the same extent as those with whom you continue to argue. you argue b/c of an understand you think you have that is deeper than the one you actually posses.

5) you are simply lazy (whihc i think isn't the case)

out of the above explanations i think its clear which one i think is most likely.

Barron

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

fold preflop. TT has bad equity anytime it's not Heads Up.


i generally only play AA and KK here, and I like to limp those for deception.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're wrong and I have explained why, but you won't give up, so I will.


[/ QUOTE ]

you are indeed a gentleman gary.

the problem is, Dom already detailed that pure gentlemen get no pussy, and in this case, lose EV.

you're logic in the above sentance is indicative of a few possibilities.

1) the posters who are arguing with you are incorrect and simply wont grasp or understand your explanations no matter how hard you try so you give up.

2) bernie not giving up means that he is obstinate and wrong at the same time and that you are again, correct to give up.

3) you are right but simply cannot explain your point so you give up.

4) YOU are the one who does not understand what is going on here to the same extent as those with whom you continue to argue. you argue b/c of an understand you think you have that is deeper than the one you actually posses.

5) you are simply lazy (whihc i think isn't the case)

out of the above explanations i think its clear which one i think is most likely.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone had actually made some compelling arguments, I'd accept 4. As it is, they didn't, and I'm pretty sure I understand poker as well as anyone on this thread (and probably this board, with a couple of exceptions).

I've explained why I didn't raise and not one argument on here has pointed out a flaw in my reasoning. The argument seems to come down to "you have a better hand than crappy players, so raise". Well that's not how you win money at poker. You win by taking all factors into account, like maximizing your ability to win the pot in a given set of circumstances combined with exploiting equity edges. It's a balance, and the posters on this thread don't appear to realize this at all.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you have a better hand than crappy players, so raise

[/ QUOTE ]

here's an example, if you're opponents had literally any hand and played EVERY hand randomly in the same spot (i.e. just change the initial limper's range to include all hands) would you raise TT?

Barron

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have a better hand than crappy players, so raise

[/ QUOTE ]

here's an example, if you're opponents had literally any hand and played EVERY hand randomly in the same spot (i.e. just change the initial limper's range to include all hands) would you raise TT?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course but that isn't what's happening here at all.

You guys don't give the bad players enough credit ... ever. They might suck, their VPIP might be 45%, but they're not total idiots. Come on already.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I understand poker as well as anyone on this thread (and probably this board, with a couple of exceptions).

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is the kind of thing that people here see a lot. Someone who's new toi the board declaring how they understand things much better than all the players who disagree with them.

[ QUOTE ]
I've explained why I didn't raise and not one argument on here has pointed out a flaw in my reasoning. The argument seems to come down to "you have a better hand than crappy players, so raise". Well that's not how you win money at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one has pointed out the reasoning because it is such an obvious play for most of the posters. Almost everyone here will raise TT against "horrendous" players.

Here's some reasoning for you. Your equity edge is often NOT small; it is frequently pretty significant. Your argument about overcards fails because the horrendous players will chase anyway, and if they call and you bet an all undercard flop, their incorrect calls will not be incorrect enough for you to have foregone the preflop raise. Giving up your preflop edge is not worth it if you can't make it back postflop.

As for "that's not how you win money at poker," yes it is. You push preflop edges when they're significant, which TT frequently is against bad limpers. They're likely to have something like 87 or 55 or A9. You really think you shouldn't raise against those hands?

HPFAP DOES NOT APPLY in the situation you're describing. They don't assume your opponents are awful players. SSHE does, and it says this is a raise.

Run some TwoDimes simulations and see what you get. A lot of the time your edge is massive.

[ QUOTE ]
It's a balance, and the posters on this thread don't appear to realize this at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assure you that many of them do.

Your TT argument is a lot like the argument not to raise AK preflop, which is also a bad play.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

Being new here doesn't have anything to do with my experience. I've been playing hold'em for 6 years, and other forms for 10 years. I understand the game, no matter how many times I've decided to post here. Kids on here think they're a lot brighter than they really are, I tell you.

And with respect to your comments about HFAP, at 15/30 horrendous players as two of my opponents makes it even more imperative that I call and be able to face them with 2 bets cold on the flop. The advice in SSHE is not relevant to this situation at all. If you don't see why, then I can't help you. Good luck at the tables though.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

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Being new here doesn't have anything to do with my experience. I've been playing hold'em for 6 years, and other forms for 10 years.

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Correct, but it does mean you shouldn't be so sure you're a better player than everyone and you especially shouldn't point it out even if you think it. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who have more experience than you (not that I'm one of them).

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at 15/30 horrendous players as two of my opponents makes it even more imperative that I call and be able to face them with 2 bets cold on the flop. The advice in SSHE is not relevant to this situation at all.

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You seem a lot more sure than I would be that everything is gonna work out just right for you to be able to checkraise the button's flop bet. What if someone else bets? Or you hit your set and WANT them to chase so you wish the pot were big? Or the button gets tricky and inexplicably takes a free card? All of these things are possibilities.

Why is SSHE not relevant? "Because it's 15/30" is not a correct answer. You've described a game with a fivehanded pot involving bad players who are openlimping and overlimping. That's a lot more similar to SSHE than HPFAP.

EDIT: While I agree that a lot of people don't give bad players enough credit, I still think your equity is big against their range of limping hands. Run some numbers and think about it. You are CRUSHING a lot of the hands they limp with. That's the point.

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

i just realized this is a 15/30 hand. post this in small stakes. you will get better answers there

Re: 1010 in a tough river spot
 

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Kids on here think they're a lot brighter than they really are, I tell you.

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This is a ridiculous statement. If you knew how incredibly skilled and well respected these players are I think you would be shocked.