Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

K, I've just finished reading Gigabet's Theory of Stack Sizes (the post concerning the Q3 hand, http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 )
and I think I grasp what he's saying: When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely, but it has me wondering: At level 4, in the general Pushbot-style play (at PP), if your stack is around 1250-1800, you're ahead of average, maybe even chipleader, but not yet at a position of dominance. GIVEN that you believe yourself the better player at the table, is it worth it to put Gigabet's Stack Size theory into play?

I can see one objection being that if you're multi-tabling you cant take the time to make these decisions, but I think that after time they could become second nature. However, given the rate of blind increase and the general nature of PP SNGs/PS turbos, is it worth it?

If so, at what level of buy-in (or does it matter).

Im still semi-not sober, so I hope this isnt just pointless rambling.

Thanks for listening.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

You are partly right. You only take -EV gambles if the resulting loss doesnt affect your stack's current stack's style of play, but the resulting win will allow you to dominate the table.

And dont call it pushbot style of play. If it was so easy and automatic, nobody would be asking those "Was I right to push questions all the time."

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

The only reason I say that is that at the lower levels I play at, damn near everyone has accepted the AleoMagus styled playbook, and raptor calls it pushbot.

Not meant to imply that either Im a genious, or poker is easy (although the 11s and 22s are fairly brainless after a while).

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

You are trying to learn basic SNG strategy right? Forget that post and maybe come back to it in a while.

That's my advice, for what it's worth.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

actually I've played a ton of sngs. I just tried to reinvent the wheel and forget all I knew.

but gigabet's post inspired me.

so I guess you're implying taht I missed something? or that Im completely off?

please elaborate, I thought I understood his point.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand this completely, but it has me wondering: At level 4, in the general Pushbot-style play (at PP), if your stack is around 1250-1800, you're ahead of average, maybe even chipleader, but not yet at a position of dominance. GIVEN that you believe yourself the better player at the table, is it worth it to put Gigabet's Stack Size theory into play?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your advantage around the bubble should be much greater than Gig's advantage in his games on the bubble. The way to exploit this is to take the many, many +EV situations that you're presented, not take a -EV one in search of artificially creating +EV situations down the line.

For the most part, Gig's opponents (215s, step 5s, etc.) play a solid, aggressive bubble where getting a large stack is very important. In the 8k chip games, this simply isn't the case. With a decent understanding of all-in prices and SNGPT, you'll already have the advantage over them, no matter what your stack is.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Well, since you asked about pushbotting I didn't think you had played that many. Maybe you are ready for Block Theory. Still, if you aren't pretty sure you understand the basics I think you are spending time going after a little bit of ROI and ignoring a big chunk.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but here is the outline of the SNG course, IMHO:

1. Rules of Poker.
2. Odds (hands, pot, implied, reverse-implied)
3. cEV calcs
4. Tournament theory ICM $EV calcs
5. SNG powertools
6. Aleo guide
7. Play for quite a while and post hands here when you get confused. Work out some basic post flop play.
8. Keep analyzing your game and reading here and slowly loosen up a little as your post flop game improves.

That's as far as I've gotten, so I don't know what comes next. I think Block theory is like step 12 or something.

You can probably bump the Aleo guide up after 2 and just start playing while you are learning.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you don't (and neither do I).

Position and table image plays a major part in Giga's concept. If you were to apply your understanding of the post in every single hand at any given level or buy-in, you would be miserable.

Think of your "extra chips" as something that could scare off a player to your left and/or make a pusher think twice.

If the push is too small to matter (perhaps twice your extra chips), then you are in a position of strength.

If the players to follow have less than or equal to double your extra chips..... You are in an very powerful position and can take -EV chances with your cards.

In my mind, the chip ratio plays a most important role post-flop and on the turn. Finding opportunities to exploit your edge will come most often when you see the flop cheaply and have position. Every good player will do this, but most will not identify the times where "chip modeling" can be used to their advantage.

Money in the bank earning zero interest is money wasted. Put your extra chips to work when it makes sense to do so.

Semi-SoberMcSlack

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

micro, this is how I want to relearn it all... skipping aleo's and basic abc stuff though.

I got good enough to win over 5k sngs... but never really learned bubble analysis, based on hard ICM and cEV numbers.

Im hijacking my own thread, but since the faq doesnt include all of those, would it be worth it to attempt a sticky along those lines? I always find it helps me learn if I have a reason to pull all of it up.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you don't (and neither do I).

Position and table image plays a major part in Giga's concept. If you were to apply your understanding of the post in every single hand at any given level or buy-in, you would be miserable.

Think of your "extra chips" as something that could scare off a player to your left and/or make a pusher think twice.

If the push is too small to matter (perhaps twice your extra chips), then you are in a position of strength.

If the players to follow have less than or equal to double your extra chips..... You are in an very powerful position and can take -EV chances with your cards.

In my mind, the chip ratio plays a most important role post-flop and on the turn. Finding opportunities to exploit your edge will come most often when you see the flop cheaply and have position. Every good player will do this, but most will not identify the times where "chip modeling" can be used to their advantage.

Money in the bank earning zero interest is money wasted. Put your extra chips to work when it makes sense to do so.

Semi-SoberMcSlack

[/ QUOTE ]

thats another facet of what I meant. and I didnt mean to come off as arrogant, with the section you bolded.
What I meant was that if my interpretation was true, I understood the concept completely.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I am also a semi-sober slacker... just not at all mcfly.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Did you read Irie's primer on it?

If not you should.

But then you should still forget you read either of them.

Yugoslav

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

um ouch?

I respect your opinion, because you obviously are better than I (not to mention a myspace pimp), however, I would really love it if you would tell me why you seem to think that Im too stupid to understand it (if thats what you're implying).

No hard feelings, but I really think I understand the lower level of what he was saying, and the higher level isnt important till Im playing at Giga-level buy-ins.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

There was nothing arrogant about your post at all. Sorry if I made it seem that way.

Bumbling through this concept a while back, I came up with a "visual" of sorts that helps me to decide tough decisions.

I think of an equalizer. Like on a music system where the bass, treble and mid-tones are displayed. Like stacks of chips, each representing a range of tones.

Draw a line directly across the mid-tone and you have an average chip size. Those above the line are "extra" chips, those below are chips "to be", or chips that will add more bass or treble as the mid-range disappears.

Since I don't want balance and am aiming for all bass (or all treble in the end), I will use the strength of the over/under concept regardless of how the music sounds in the meantime.

GoofyMcUpTooLate

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Huh?!

No it has nothing to do with you being able to or not being able to understand. It has to do with the apparent worth of understanding and then being able to apply. It's the type of thing that is waaaaay too easy to screw up and hurt your ROI than to help it (and at lower stakes I'm not necessarily sure it is that helpful at all).

Certainly become familiar with stack sizes and their affect on the table and how it will play. Let the stack configurations govern your plans and how your future plans will change once the configurations change. But trying to squeeze profitability from Giga's concept of block theory (or as I always termed it before his post, chunking) is just going to be painful. I ignore it for all practical purposes entirely.

Read Irie's post that sums it up, I think he's closer to distilling it than anything else I've read on the subject.

It may be helpful to understand what is going on from a theoretical standpoint...but I doubt there is much practical worth for almost all winning players. Neither do the very good players I know. Hell, 1/2 of them think the whole thing is complete rubbish (while I admit confusing, I don't think it's rubbish).

Sorry, I'm a bit tired and worn down tonight....I got treated to all the lobster+shrimp+booze I could handle tonight by one of our vendors....and then he ended up screaming at the managers of the restaurant we were at.....blows were almost had but I physically pulled him away just in time (even drunk he knew he couldn't be physical with his client, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

Some of what I'm saying may not be coming out clearly....[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

Yugoslav
PS You mention 'lower level' of what Giga is saying....if you mean he is saying something crucially valuable to lower stakes STTs...it's just not there....hell, the CV may not even be all *that* helpful in those games.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

yeah, I got the same picture for the lower level of what he was saying, and for the upper level, I dont think you draw the line across the middle exactly, because its not a hard number, its kind of an "inflection point" that defines your ability to make certain plays... and if you're just above one (playing normally) and below the one you want (being able to dominate) then you should take -EV and try to get up there.

However, an earlier poster made a good point, at the levels I currently play, I dont need the second level of thinking, since Im not going to be against very good competition.

Drunky McNameTheif

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

yugo, thats what I was wondering, what you meant by "forget it".

thats cool, I understand what you mean. I just am addicted to higher-level thinking and like new metagame concepts, or viewing them in a new light.

But yes, it did make me look at stack sizes in a different way, which may just be the most important thing to consider in STTs at my level.

by lower level thinking I was talking about that - stack sizes.

okay, Im kinda hurtin now, and rambling, and I think me and yugo are kinda posting on top of eachother here.

btw, that night sounds interesting, I want a full report on my forum by tomorrow morning!

(either in OOT or here, please!)

GOODNIGHT!

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

I think if you are a better player than the rest of the field, it is worth it because if you lose, you have enough chips to rebuild and still be a threat. If you win, it's a simple steamroll over the rest of the table until you win the tournament.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are trying to learn basic SNG strategy right? Forget that post and maybe come back to it in a while.

That's my advice, for what it's worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely correct. Gigabet's post is only for people who have mastered all the basics, because:

A) It will cause you to make what seems to be -EV plays

B) It comes up only rarely

Get everything else right first. I can only think of one thread on here where I took Gigabet's theory into account in the last few weeks and it wasn't even my own hand. It hasn't come up in very many of my recent sngs either.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

As far as stickies go, you can save a thread as one of your favorites if you want. I think a lot of the stuff you want to see is linked in The Shadow post which is somewhere in the FAQ or something.

Why don't let us know some more about what games you have played, for how long, what you are playing now and stuff?

I read through some of your old posts to check on this stuff and couldn't find it too easily, but I think you might end up being buds with pergesu if you hang out here long enough.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Eh? Pergesu?

hmm, thinly veiled insult?

Okay, I played around 5k sngs at the $11 and $22 level, was doing fine but just got bored (I didnt keep track of stats, but looking at my account history thingy, it seems that I was around the level discussed in the faq).

I then tried the MTT grind, learning alot from ExitOnly, and did that until one night of awful variance, but I still made some cash. Well after taht, and for a while now, I've been bonus whoring cash games, and it has totally ruined my SNG game.

Thats why Im saying Im not a complete noob, but I really do wanna go back and learn it all correctly.

Um and someone please take the retard (me) aside and explain the Pergesu thing... was it compliment, insult?

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh? Pergesu?

hmm, thinly veiled insult?

[/ QUOTE ]

You wish you were buds with pergesu.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh? Pergesu?

hmm, thinly veiled insult?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. You don't like Pergesu? I like Pergesu. My impression is that he is a very smart person and a very good poker player if you get past his self-effacing self-assessment.

I was just thinking about some of your recreational activities, which I have absolutely nothing against.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh? Pergesu?

hmm, thinly veiled insult?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. You don't like Pergesu? I like Pergesu. My impression is that he is a very smart person and a very good poker player if you get past his self-effacing self-assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pride cometh before a fall.

[ QUOTE ]
I was just thinking about some of your recreational activities, which I have absolutely nothing against.

[/ QUOTE ]
A bottle of Jack cometh before a fall.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

My bad pergesu.. I erally didnt understand the statement.

haha, all I knew about you was that I liked your avatar.

ahh, so you enjoy jack as well?

but i disagree... for me, usually tequila cometh before a fall... you know what they say: one tequila two tequila three tequila floor.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are trying to learn basic SNG strategy right? Forget that post and maybe come back to it in a while.

That's my advice, for what it's worth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Low buy-in SNG players trying to play like Gigabet are in for a world of hurt.
You need to learn to walk before you run. Gigabet is flying, if you try to be Gigabet, you are much more likely to be a fool jumping off a building.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Ok, your first assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to find dethgrind's ucla website and read everything there. If you don't have the math or programming background you might just skim some of it, but there is some math stuff there that is accessible to non-mathematicians/programmers.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

haha, Im a computer science major, currently taking discreet and calc 2, I hope I'll be fine.

now how wouldst I go about searching for this?

and I wish people would stop telling me to ignore gigabets theory. I just posted it to ask if I had comprehension, I know enough not to try third level moves with donks not even on the first level.

jeez.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

now how wouldst I go about searching for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Google "ICM calculator", you'll find it.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

me = Pwn3d.

thanks.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
now how wouldst I go about searching for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's dethgrind's website.

[ QUOTE ]
and I wish people would stop telling me to ignore gigabets theory. I just posted it to ask if I had comprehension, I know enough not to try third level moves with donks not even on the first level.

jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you got the basics of block theory close enough. I'm not a big believer though. I don't think block theory (if valid) is necessarily for higher buyins only. I just think that, if it helps, it adds only a very small bit of ROI.

p.s. Don't get upset about the link above, it is all in good fun my man.

Re: Gigabet\'s Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?
 

um actually I was kind of making a forum joke when I asked how to find it.

I wont get upset, haha, I hope I have a thicker skin than that.

I will however bookmark that... thanks!