KK UTG
 

Poker Room 5-10 Full Table

Lone villian is 18.7/11/2.5 over 100 or so hands. He's a decent to good player


Hip has K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG


Hip raises, 8 folds, BB 3-bets, Hip caps, BB calls


Flop (HU) 8.5sb

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


BB checks, Hip checks


Turn (HU) 4BB


3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, Hip calls


River (HU) 6BB

4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, Hips calls


How's this look [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: KK UTG
 

I'd fold the turn.

Given your read I can't put villain on any hand that you're ahead of.

EDIT: I thought villain capped. KQs and JJ are possible, so calling down is ok.

How often do you need to be good to make it +ev?

Re: KK UTG
 

I fold the turn.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't I going to get run over at 5-10 just folding KK heads up like that?

Re: KK UTG
 

Stop worrying about stuff like this. You have the opponents stats. You know his hand range. You know the right play. Don't worry about getting run over in tight full ring games.

Re: KK UTG
 

Hmm. It costs us 2 BBs to see a showdown, and we're getting 6:2 overall on our turn and river calls.

We're probably losing, though.

AK = 6 combos
AQ = 9 combos
AA = 3 combos
QQ = 3 combos

KK = 1 combo

JJ = 6 combos
TT = 6 combos

That seems good enough, but the range is just a guess. In fact, Villain's range could be wider, especially since he knew the pot would be heads-up. But a wider range could help or hurt you, depending on how Villain extends that range.

Some other thoughts:

Once Villain bets the river, I'm not very optimistic. But you are getting 7:1 at that point.

Your flop check (which I think is okay) smells like a trap. But Villain might (correctly, in this case) interpret it as weakness instead, so it's hard to know what we should make of his turn lead.

Re: KK UTG
 

TT cap is almost impossible, JJ is fairly unlikely.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT cap is almost impossible, JJ is fairly unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero capped, not BB.

I don't know Poker Room 5/10. But if the range I provided is too narrow and we should eliminate TT, then we should probably get rid of AQ as well.

So, then:

AK = 6 combos
AA = 3 combos
QQ = 3 combos

KK = 1 combo

JJ = 6 combos

Re: KK UTG
 

Wasn't there a observed 100/200 hand just like this posted a couple weeks ago? I think everyone felt the flop check was a mistake.

Edit: Maybe Not

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT cap is almost impossible, JJ is fairly unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain only 3-bet - it was hero that capped.

IMO, folding to the turn bet after checking the flop is really weak. Without a strong read on BB, I think he could be 3-betting lots of hands here, like medium PPs. If he doesn't smell a rat with your flop check, then he'll value-bet his TT or whatever.

Actually, after thinking about it a little bit, I think I like a turn raise. This play emulates a monster enough so that a thinking villain might fold an A, and if he doesn't, we can take a free showdown.

Re: KK UTG
 

I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

Re: KK UTG
 

I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

I think the WA/WB line sucks here, largely because you are way behind so much more often than you are way ahead, and putting in the full 2 big bets seems like a shitty way to find that out.

Will

Re: KK UTG
 

Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

People 3betting from the BB shortens their 3betting range, not widens it (Ignoring 3betting SB/B/CO steal attempts). You can probably prove this using a PT database.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that against this opponent, this plan sounds pretty good.

Against a looser peeler, the situation seems to me like it would be more complicated. A lot of Small Stakes players aren't folding any big pocket pair in this pot that began heads-up, despite the preflop action and the board.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

People 3betting from the BB shortens their 3betting range, not widens it (Ignoring 3betting SB/B/CO steal attempts).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in general, but I'm not sure that's the case in a pot that is already definitely going to be heads-up. Plus, Villain is decent and should know that, more often than not, he's up against two unpaired big cards.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen it work, but only against some seriously weak-tight micro players.

I mean, if we're just going for showdown, here, then that's cool, but that doesn't make the hand very interesting, now does it? But, if you're playing against an aggro player, mightn't you check the flop with the intention of inducing a turn bluff that you could then raise?

Re: KK UTG
 

I think I like your approach. What if the action goes.

Hero Bets. Villain Calls.
Turn: Villain Checks. Hero Checks.
River: Villain Bets. Hero?

Do you call of fold here?

Re: KK UTG
 

ok my three betting range to a solid tag out of the BB is, AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AK,AQs, but if the BB is a muppet you can increase his range to include 99,88 maybe AJ

I bet the flop, must bet this flop nothing says i have KK more than checking this flop, but say you misclicked, i raise the turn which says ha ha your fuked i have AA, but he wont fold any A here so check behind on the turn.

Re: KK UTG
 

I really want to bet the flop here, but once I'm called, its really hard to not bet the turn. I fully expect villain to bet the river if I check behind on the turn because he might be using the "if you have a hand that is barely worth a call, you should bet" line. Given that I think that, I think checking/calling is good.

I think raising the turn would be a poor play because an ace that 3 bets from the SB is never folding, and who cares about folding out a hand like TT? Its much better to induce value bets.

With the way you played it, your turn effective odds were 6:2 or 3:1, so your hand needs to be good 25% of the time, not counting either your 2 outer or his possible 2 outer.

Here's the range I give him preflop:

JJ 6
KK 1
AA 3
AK 6
TT 3=(6)(.5)
QQ 3

I divided TT by 2 because Alex/Mugaaz has a good point about giving TT and JJ here equal weight. Anyway, this looks like a call on the turn, especially given that you checked the flop and his agg factor is fairly high.

However, you have to be fairly certain that villain is following the "I have to call if he bets line so I might as well bet". Because you can't be certain he's following this line, you have to fold the turn.

Sure, you could argue that his flop check indicated weakness, but I think this is much less of a factor than the relative improbability that villain is following the "better to bet than check call" line. The pot isn't big enough.

You really have to take the preflop 3 bet range, and truncate it after his turn bet. 3:1 effective odds is too little for this modified range. I think Alex/Mugaaz has a good point.

Re: KK UTG
 

As I said, I fold. His range of hands includes a whole bunch that beat me and jacks. (Oh, and the one possible combo of KK) He's not calling my flop bet with jacks - at least I don't think he will.

Will

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

I think the WA/WB line sucks here, largely because you are way behind so much more often than you are way ahead, and putting in the full 2 big bets seems like a shitty way to find that out.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]


I really like this line

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stop worrying about stuff like this. You have the opponents stats. You know his hand range. You know the right play. Don't worry about getting run over in tight full ring games.

[/ QUOTE ]

word

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you have JJ or TT, and are trying to get him to fold a higher pair.

But when you have KK, what better hands could he have that he would fold? AA? QQ? AQ? AK? none of these are folding, most of them are 3-betting (except maybe AK which might go into calldown mode).

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you have JJ or TT, and are trying to get him to fold a higher pair.

But when you have KK, what better hands could he have that he would fold? AA? QQ? AQ? AK? none of these are folding, most of them are 3-betting (except maybe AK which might go into calldown mode).

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought my most was clear that I agreed with all of this and that's why I think it's virtually never worth doing. Just to be clear, I AGREE.

Re: KK UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play a ton at Pokerroom 5/10 and i agree with the above