Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Hello All,
I'd like to discuss the strategy used by the "Biggest Online Winner (BOW)", as described in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. For those who haven't read the book, here's a brief description of the BOW strategy used in NL Cash Games (as referenced in the book on pp 246):

1. Get in the pot cheaply

2. Massively overbet with some premium draws

3. Massively overbet with the nuts or the best hand


Here's an example (also referenced from the book on pp 246):

After the flop the pot is 500.00
BOW has 5,000.00
I have 5,000.00 and Ac Kd
The flop comes down: Ah 7s 6s
BOW moves all-in


Here are some specifics I'd like to discuss:

1) Has anyone used this strategy? If so, what's your opinion of it? If not, feel free to give your opinion.

2) Do you believe this strategy to be effective w/ a standard buy-in of 100 BB?

3) For the purpose of using this strategy, could a clean 8-out draw be considered "Premium" on the flop? I think that the combination of Fold Equity & the Odds of making your hand make this a profitable play (though alot of other factors come into consideration, such as number of opponents & reads).


I know that many, many factors come to mind anytime one decides how to play a given holding. If you think it'll improve the quality of this post, I'll create some hands &
post them.


Thanks In Advance,
mayesie

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

This strategy is not good for SSNL. If you only overbet the nuts it is closer to optimal. People call WAY too much.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Doesn't Prahlad Friedman use a lot of this strategy?

Also, try posting this in MHNL. Semibluffing and table image are not exactly top priorities in SSNL.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Like the idea, hate the example.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Idea might be good but try it on that board and you're only getting called by sets and two pairs. You can offset your loss a little by including AQ but its not enough.

Better at higher stakes and if you seriously want to play higher stakes you should consider learning the game properly.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Idea might be good but try it on that board and you're only getting called by sets and two pairs. You can offset your loss a little by including AQ but its not enough.

Better at higher stakes and if you seriously want to play higher stakes you should consider learning the game properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never used this strategy. What exactly do you mean when you say "learning the game properly"? If your statement equates to "understanding basic & intermediate fundamentals" and "playing well enough to properly execute the fundamentals", I tend to agree.

Nonetheless, the BOM strategy doesn't seem to be a big hit around here!

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't Prahlad Friedman use a lot of this strategy?

Also, try posting this in MHNL. Semibluffing and table image are not exactly top priorities in SSNL.

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Thanks for the suggestion regarding MHNL. Is it your opinion that Semibluffing and table image aren't high priorities in SSNL?

Regardless, I think I understand your point (Semibluffing and table image become much more important as you play higher stakes).

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Also, I believe "BOW" to be none other than Prahlad himself!

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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Like the idea, hate the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate as to why you hate about the example.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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This strategy is not good for SSNL. If you only overbet the nuts it is closer to optimal. People call WAY too much.

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I can't say for sure whether or not they call too much in SSNL. Obviously, there are plenty of players willing to call off their stacks in increments. In my experience, an overbet of this magnitude is quite rare.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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Is it your opinion that Semibluffing and table image aren't high priorities in SSNL?

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It's pretty much a fact. Things like starting hand requirments and learning to value bet properly are MUCH more important.

What I mean is that you can be a consistant winner in SSNL without ever semibluffing or paying attention to your own table image, two concepts that are linked for obvious reasons. Since your opponents are using Level 1 thinking ("What do I have?"), table image is not that important.

Also, as TWP has said, players in SSNL call down too much. This makes semibluffing MUCH less profitable, since your fold equity is drastically reduced.

Also, even if you only ever overbet the pot with the nuts, people will still call it, whereas in MHNL you have to mix it up by overbetting the pot on a draw sometimes.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Just finished reading Phil Gordon's Little Green Book and I was very intriged by the BOW section. Based on his mathematical explanation of why it works, it looks like a sound strategy. However, it only seems effective against stronger opponents. I can't see how it would work against the donks who play the SSNL tables. You'd get called too much and lose the FE. Also, many of those calls would come from better draws than yours which just happens to be one method to beat this strategy as Phil notes.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Like the idea, hate the example.

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Please elaborate as to why you hate about the example.

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Who do you think calls this bet? The majority of the time this bet is called AK is gonna loose. You are pushing off weaker aces that would put a reasonable amount of money in and only getting hands that will beat you to call.

If the example he gave was TJ4 with a flush draw and you have a set of 4's you might get called by AA, KK, QQ, J10, maybe even AJ or KQ with the open ender and overs. You might get called by someone with the flush draw as well. There are a ton of worse hands that might call a huge overbet. With your set you are gonna be a favorite over all these hands. That would be a better example IMO.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like the idea, hate the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate as to why you hate about the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think calls this bet? The majority of the time this bet is called AK is gonna loose. You are pushing off weaker aces that would put a reasonable amount of money in and only getting hands that will beat you to call.

If the example he gave was TJ4 with a flush draw and you have a set of 4's you might get called by AA, KK, QQ, J10, maybe even AJ or KQ with the open ender and overs. You might get called by someone with the flush draw as well. There are a ton of worse hands that might call a huge overbet. With your set you are gonna be a favorite over all these hands. That would be a better example IMO.

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In the example (as posted, anyway, I don't have the book), you have TPTK and are FACING a push, not pushing yourself. I think the point they are going for is that by overbetting the flop you can get TPTK to lay down. Of course, thats the last thing you want TPTK to do if you have a set, so its kinda contradictory.

[ QUOTE ]

After the flop the pot is 500.00
BOW has 5,000.00
I have 5,000.00 and Ac Kd
The flop comes down: Ah 7s 6s
BOW moves all-in


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like the idea, hate the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate as to why you hate about the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think calls this bet? The majority of the time this bet is called AK is gonna loose. You are pushing off weaker aces that would put a reasonable amount of money in and only getting hands that will beat you to call.

If the example he gave was TJ4 with a flush draw and you have a set of 4's you might get called by AA, KK, QQ, J10, maybe even AJ or KQ with the open ender and overs. You might get called by someone with the flush draw as well. There are a ton of worse hands that might call a huge overbet. With your set you are gonna be a favorite over all these hands. That would be a better example IMO.

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Actually, we don't know BOW's cards in the example I gave. In the example, I have AK, and am put all-in by BOW on the flop.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Do note that Villain is moving in, and Hero has AK in this example.

If Villain does this with big draws or monster hands only, Hero has to fold.

If Villain does this with big draws, monster hands and occasional air, Hero has to decide what the odds are of each, where he stands on each, etc.

I think in large part this is based on game theory. Villain may move in under a particular set of circumstances (a flop with 13 outs, a flop of top two or greater, or occasional flops as total bluffs). I think the game theory aspect of this play makes it hugely +EV. Hero knows villain might be bluffing. Villain knows hero knows this. And hero knows....

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Ohh facing a bet... hmm I need to get the book. If you do this a lot though it seems you will get picked off sooner or later. BTW when I overbet it is to get the most amount of money in the pot when I have the best hand and when I think other people might call.. it is not to get them to lay anything down unless I am on the bluff.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like the idea, hate the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate as to why you hate about the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think calls this bet? The majority of the time this bet is called AK is gonna loose. You are pushing off weaker aces that would put a reasonable amount of money in and only getting hands that will beat you to call.

If the example he gave was TJ4 with a flush draw and you have a set of 4's you might get called by AA, KK, QQ, J10, maybe even AJ or KQ with the open ender and overs. You might get called by someone with the flush draw as well. There are a ton of worse hands that might call a huge overbet. With your set you are gonna be a favorite over all these hands. That would be a better example IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the example (as posted, anyway, I don't have the book), you have TPTK and are FACING a push, not pushing yourself. I think the point they are going for is that by overbetting the flop you can get TPTK to lay down. Of course, thats the last thing you want TPTK to do if you have a set, so its kinda contradictory.

[ QUOTE ]

After the flop the pot is 500.00
BOW has 5,000.00
I have 5,000.00 and Ac Kd
The flop comes down: Ah 7s 6s
BOW moves all-in


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This strategy forces you to play your sets in the same fashion as your strong draws. If you're pushing everytime you catch a strong draw, TPTK is highly unlikely to fold then you push with a set.

There a (3) things about this strategy that intrigue me:

- The amount of deception created from pushing monsters and strong draws

- The potential to put opponents on tilt, making it easier to win more money (esp. if running good).

- The "intimidation factor"



I see (3) significant problems w/ this strategy:

- The swings will be horrendous (as mentioned in the book)

- Good Opponents will adjust (also mentioned in the book)

- Amount of Fold Equity lost in SSNL Games because of calling stations

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

I think its amusing that phil gordon makes it extremely obvious that he's talking about spirit rock.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

Does the book suggest you move all in with TPTK/OverPairs/2pair?
in addition to big draws and sets.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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Does the book suggest you move all in with TPTK/OverPairs/2pair?
in addition to big draws and sets.

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The book only states moving in w/ Premium Draws, the Nuts, or what's believed to still be the best hand. I believe you'd have no choice but to play the above-mentioned hands in the same fashion to avoid giving yourself away.

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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If you only overbet the nuts it is closer to optimal.

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I agree.
My fundamental rule of SSNL is to never see a showdown before allin with 2pair+ if I think I am ahead.

Best wishes

Re: Biggest Online Winner (BOW) Strategy
 

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Also, as TWP has said, players in SSNL call down too much. This makes semibluffing MUCH less profitable

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Some time ago I wrote on this forum that for example with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on Qxx 2clubs board you should almost never raise in SSNL but just call and I got flamed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Well in 200NL and below is just stupid. Cause when you call and hit the chances are the from time to time ppl will call two pot bets or they will give you a free card on the turn.