help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

taken from GrunchCan's post yesterday:

[ QUOTE ]
Stars 1/2 NL, effective stacks $200 all around.

UTG is a typical learning TAG, who tends to nut-peddle. Opens pot for $10. All fold to Hero on the button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero calls, blinds fold.

2 to the flop for $23. Flop comes 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets $23.

In this scenario, against this opponent, I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

several respected posters noted that this was "perfect", but i can't quite get my mind around these types of situations. Pushing $190 into a $46 pot seems wrong to me. If this is really the correct play, what do you do different with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here, and why? I feel like there's something i'm fundamentally missing here.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

With a strong draw, you are almost even money to win (if he calls), not counting folding equity. You are also guaranteed to see both cards. If you just call and miss on the turn, you may not have the odds to call a large bet. Additionally, if you hit your hand (i.e. a flush hits), he may not pay you off. So you may win less when you hit your hand on the turn, and get pushed off your hand if you miss the turn.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

I think the idea is that you're pretty sure your opponent has an overpair or AK and you have 12 solid outs to complete your draw. That makes you about even money to the river. You have a good amount of fold equity here (put yourself in your opponent's shoes holding AA with no spade). Even if he calls, you're getting decent pot odds. The fold equity helps make this move +EV too.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

That is why I was specific that I mmake this play, "against this opponent." Against a nut-peddling learning TAG, the push has a lot of FE.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

By the way, if you haven't read Kane's article (linked in my post yesterday), you really should. He discusses this in depth there.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

i understand that its +EV, that doesn't necessarily make it the best move. I know with this flop its a strong hand. I'm just not sure why it's best to play this differently than other strong hands here (flopped set, straight).

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

Well with a flopped made hand (like a set), when the opponent folds that's a bad thing. When we have no hand (but a draw), it's a good thing.

With the set, we're a big favorite against his range, so we want to get all his chips in the middle. We want him to call, and it would suck if he didn't.

With the big draw where I pushed, I was hopiing he would fold. I didn't mind if he called.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. If executed at the right time, it's a strong move. I'd love pushing someone of AA or KK when all I have is 8-high. Whether you show your hand down or not, you get some advertising as a LAG. You may increase your chances of getting paid later when you do have a hand.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

Just to add something else, if you're going to push draws here, you should also occasionally be pushing you big made hands(ie. sets) correct?

If you fall into the habit of only pushing on your draws you're going to lose your fold equity. Though maybe I'm incorrect in this assessment.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

That is true, but only relevent against opponents you know are taking notes on how you play.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just to add something else, if you're going to push draws here, you should also occasionally be pushing you big made hands(ie. sets) correct?

If you fall into the habit of only pushing on your draws you're going to lose your fold equity. Though maybe I'm incorrect in this assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe your opponents are paying attention, then yes you probably should. Myself I don't find these situations very often and I often get called and lose to a higher flushdraw or something. But I only play 50nl/100nl so people are often happy to go allin with semi-crap.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes more sense to me.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with not pushing double draws like this is IMO the turn play, if you miss do you still wanna go allin? What if the flush hits and he bets big?

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

xorbie, this sounds at least as good as pushing as long as you have position. But does your answer change if villain is to your left? If you're OOP, a blank turn gets awkward.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

That is why I was specific that I mmake this play, "against this opponent." Against a nut-peddling learning TAG, the push has a lot of FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this alot. except the times they mull it over, say to you "this is a bad call" and calls anyway. oh well.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with not pushing double draws like this is IMO the turn play, if you miss do you still wanna go allin? What if the flush hits and he bets big?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of the flop raise is to check if you miss. If he pushes after the flush hits you obviously call.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]

xorbie, this sounds at least as good as pushing as long as you have position. But does your answer change if villain is to your left? If you're OOP, a blank turn gets awkward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet/3-bet or check raise all in are fine.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is key. If we play our super draws like a set (as in, raising to $70 or whatever, instead of pushing), I think we can get more FE by doing a larger raise instead of pushing. It looks more like a big hand, whereas pushing makes it look more like a draw.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like to look at it this way. Raising to $70 here is almost always a better move, both in the space of this play and for metagame considerations. If he has AK, he still folds right? If he pushes, oh well. We call. Trust me, a push is not folding JJ+ anyway, so don't worry about the fold equity here. If he does end up pushing AK.. well we're a pretty solid favorite. I'll live. And honestly, I think a raise to $70 has the same exact FE as a push, with the obviously positive bonus of sometimes allowing you to see a free card if he does just call with JJ+ (which is certainly possible).

Metagame, this move is a lot sexier because it lets you not play your strong made hands by over pushing, which will fold out marginal hands (on this board, there aren't too many, but you don't want to fold out TPGK so easily).

[/ QUOTE ]

amen

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, the folding equity is key here. Without the chance that the opponent will fold to the push, there's no reason to push.

That is why I was specific that I mmake this play, "against this opponent." Against a nut-peddling learning TAG, the push has a lot of FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this alot. except the times they mull it over, say to you "this is a bad call" and calls anyway. oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm understanding correctly, it's okay if they call a significant % of the time since your probably no worse than %40 with your 12 or so outs.

Re: help me understand - overpushing big draws
 

Xorbie, i'd be interested to know... what's your play here with AKs? KTs?