Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

I already posted what follows, but deep in the other thread, so many will miss it. I think the subject matter deseves its own thread. Keep in mind my propensity to not go into details is due only to my laziness and slow typing abilities. Much elaboration, by me or someone else, is eventually necessary.


There is one other last ditch measure (two versions) that I am very familiar with (without which we would not have a general moderator for theis website). The only problem is that it takes awhile and I have only until Jan 1.

The idea is to get to the top of the friends ladder, have her become emotionally dependent on you and then VERY DECISIVELY announce with NO WARNING and NO SNIVELING that you realize you are attracted to her and that it is best if you don't see each other again. Do not make it sound like it is an ultimatum! Make her think that you totally assume you have no chance with her. You are just making an announcement. Period.

The other version, probably more powerful, is to tell her, or better yet hint (again after having spent a lot of time on the top of her friends ladder) that you have a girlfriend who would prefer you two stop being so friendly. This you can string out over a week or two. Perhaps you can get a girl to act the part. Or if you want to be unethical you can actually get a girlfriend.

After the speech you really don't see her. But there is about a 25% chance she will call you after a week or two of reflection. (5% chance of instant capitulation).

The key here is to get to the VERY TOP of the friends ladder and not be too "cuddly" as you are doing it. Hobbe's wife will call you a snake in the grass but she is wrong. Because girls who will torment nice guys while they date the jerks should not complain about this tactic, at least as far as I'm concerned.

So the bottom line is to ask her out but not appear crushed if you get turned down. Then act as if being just friends is OK. After which spend about two or three months wending your way into her mind. Where she feels you are the first person to tell when anything important comes up. It will be too late for me but maybe not for you.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you can get a girl to act the part. Or if you want to be unethical you can actually get a girlfriend.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't both of these situations unethical?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Different leagues. Please don't hijack this thread over my one unneeded sentence.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
Different leagues. Please don't hijack this thread over my one unneeded sentence.

[/ QUOTE ]

All apologies. We can save the ethics discussion for another day. I will add something more useful for Snoball to pay my penitence.

The holidays is not best time of the year to move up the friends ladder. People tend to plan to spend that time with their families and close friends. Snoball either needs a sob story (i.e he's has no family nearby to be with for the holidays) or some other device to get penciled into her holiday activities. If this doesn't happen, I don't think I see another line to meet the January 1 deadline.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
. (5% chance of instant capitulation).



[/ QUOTE ]

That alone should be enough for you to follow davids advice....he is the math expert = )

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

This is what happens when mathematicians get involved in human relations.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Too risky.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

I understand that the man needs to get laid by January 1, 2006 (which, by the way, coincides with the changes in Medicare). Why does he not have the option of using booze? I mean, when I was in college, that's how we got laid. Throw a few wine coolers down the broad's throat, tell your roomate to take a hike, and batta-bing, you're in. I mean, isn't that just faster than taking the time to emotionally manipulate her?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

cause that is rape. If she won't sleep with you sober, then getting her drunk to sleep with you is rape. See the law for any help.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

What ever happened to just be yourself? Don't you see this as wrong and playing games?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
Too risky.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is he risking at this point? The opportunity to possibly get manipulated for a longer period of time?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

My problem with this is that he hasn't really tried the straight and narrow path at this point. This is like throwing a Hail Mary in the third quarter.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Who said dating isn't a "game" in the first place. I've employed many tricks with women with varying forms of success.

When I was in college, I did an experiment to do all the "wrong things" after coming up with a reasonable system (e.g. look too desperate, call too much/too often, not be very smooth, etc.). I came to the realization that my system gave me a better edge compared to being a nice, honest guy.

Essentially, David is suggesting to psychologically manipulate her as a last ditch effort. Is this wrong? Then perhaps you should boycott places that have sales reps. What do you think they do?

Some women have this Groucho Marx attitute when it comes to men: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member."

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

the root problem is the fixation on a single girl who does not share the feeling. this does not address that problem.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
the root problem is the fixation on a single girl who does not share the feeling. this does not address that problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) There is nothing wrong with being fixated on a girl (as long as this isn't a pattern).

2) We don't yet know if she does or is capable of sharing the feeling.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

If you think beautiful women don't know about the whole "make friends with them first" angle you haven't been with enough beautiful women. The jig is up guys, because they know!

It takes years to become close friends with someone not months. This is not controversial advice David, this is just plain stupid advice.

Snowball's dilemma is not really about whether the girl likes him or not, it's about courage.

Does he have the courage to ask this beautiful girl if she really likes him?

Or...

Does he play stupid mind games with her to avoid the courage it requires to just ask her?

What you suggest just prolongs the torture and anguish of secretly yearning for her while you build the fake friendship and then multiple the pain and dejection you have to deal with if she still says no. What if she finds out or realizes that this was your whole plan all along and she goes from being friends with you to hating you. There are just too many situation this plan can go from bad to worse.

Snowball should just muster the courage to ask her if she likes him in that way. Either he gets the utter elation of a "yes" or he starts that arduous journey of getting over her if he gets a "no."

What you advise is a bad risk.

EDiT: Typos

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

It is true that women find nice guys not sexy. Sklansky seems to think so; so do I.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

I agree.

Snowball, sack up and have the conversation. If she's special enough to warrant all this thought, she's special enough for you to garner some courage.

And stop worrying about how/when/logostics, etc. 99% of the time none of that will matter. If she really likes you you could ask her out through a mouthful of slugs and she'll say yes.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

pls grow up and stop living out your midlife crisis vicariously through posters. thx.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Brilliant. Absloutely brilliant. I used a variation of this tactic with great results once. When is "Dating for advanced players" being published?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
cause that is rape. If she won't sleep with you sober, then getting her drunk to sleep with you is rape. See the law for any help.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Getting her drunk giving her rohypnol waiting till she passed out and then having sex with her would be rape. Getting her into a state of mind in which she agrees to have sex with you is not rape goof.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Nice guys who know how to be aggressive would tell you they have no trouble attracting women. Being nice is not enough, it is a valuable asset for attracting women but it is just the beginning. I find guys who complain about "nice guys finishing last" are usually the one who know nothing more then just being nice. Somehow if they were to be more aggressive or straight forward it would be percieved as offensive or not nice to women. When it comes to romance you need to know when to be more then nice to get a women hot. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

There are certain risks to being more aggressive and showing someone who you really feel but if you aren't willing to pursue what really you want where does that leave you?

I find that nice guys who aren't willing to take the risk are the ones who say, "Nice guys always finish last." What they are really saying is, "I always finish last." Being a nice guy has little or nothing to do with their failure.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cause that is rape. If she won't sleep with you sober, then getting her drunk to sleep with you is rape. See the law for any help.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Getting her drunk giving her rohypnol waiting till she passed out and then having sex with her would be rape. Getting her into a state of mind in which she agrees to have sex with you is not rape goof.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't ever have to use this argument in court.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

It saddens me that you've lowered a possible relationship to poker terms and being conniving and sneaky to the girl.

Please go outside once in a while.

Meanwhile, if you like the girl, tell her so. Snowball is by no means an idiot and I hope that he won't take the horrible advice offered.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Or just find someone else?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
It saddens me that you've lowered a possible relationship to poker terms and being conniving and sneaky to the girl.

Please go outside once in a while.

Meanwhile, if you like the girl, tell her so. Snowball is by no means an idiot and I hope that he won't take the horrible advice offered.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont listen, its not like she's a chick. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

but I call bullshit on each and every one of you who advocates not playing games. That's like being at a test when you're allowed a cheat sheet, and not having one. They do it EVERY TIME so level the playing field.

When they stop playing games all the time (only certain ones ever will) its because they hear a little biological tick-tick-tick.

No offense to the females here, but I will not accept a denial of my statement. No matter the woman, no matter how much she says she wants a straightforward relationship... she WILL play at least one game or two in the course of dating.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Actually I find women are always playing games so the best way to get them is to refuse to participate. Hang out with her and all that but just refuse to do the whole I am trying to be so nice to impress you. Give small hints that you may like her but also make it so that you might not. The confusion will kill them and then you are in. Make a girl realize you are in complete control of the situation and you will be; women are used to have us by the dicks.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Right they all play games until the game is over and that's called marriage. At that point they start playing games with other men. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

behemoth-

Not once has snow mentioned this girl playing games with him. All that has been mentioned is Sklansky's bet and how he should get her drunk and screw her.

Although I am a tomboy at heart, I have never played games because I like straightforward people. I would rather have someone tell me straight up what's going on than to have to live through someones horrible idea of a game/bet.

I guess it comes down to respect. Me and my boyfriend have never played games and jebus am I thankful.

I don't really care about another dumb bitch in the world to be perfectly honest. If you ask me, I'm the only cool girl you'll ever meet. I was just trying to instill some sense in this ridiculous schpeal.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
behemoth-

Not once has snow mentioned this girl playing games with him. All that has been mentioned is Sklansky's bet and how he should get her drunk and screw her.

Although I am a tomboy at heart, I have never played games because I like straightforward people. I would rather have someone tell me straight up what's going on than to have to live through someones horrible idea of a game/bet.

I guess it comes down to respect. Me and my boyfriend have never played games and jebus am I thankful.

I don't really care about another dumb bitch in the world to be perfectly honest. If you ask me, I'm the only cool girl you'll ever meet. I was just trying to instill some sense in this ridiculous schpeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew you would say that.

Yes, this girl IS playing a game... know what it's called? "I'll play innocent, and act like I dont know that Im hot, like I dont know touching you on the shoulder bringing you presents etc. makes you think I want you. I do know that since Im hot, I'm leading you on... but I'll act like I don't because it's more fun that way."

Sorry, Im glad you and your bf have a great relationship, and maybe you never played games, but then you're on a poker forum so what kinda chick are you really?

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Very well reasoned response.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hobbe's wife will call you a snake in the grass but she is wrong. Because girls who will torment nice guys while they date the jerks should not complain about this tactic, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

How, exactly, is this girl tormenting our hero? To the best of my knowledge, she doesn't even know she's been asked on a date because Snowball keeps muddying the waters by inviting her to group activities like Halloween parties.

Now, maybe she is using him. I speculated about that at the beginning. But because Snowball has not been straightforward, it is impossible to know for sure.

Someone else above just nailed it when he said that what this boils down to is courage. Stop overthinking this. Stop with the games, and just ask her out. If she says yes, great. If not, it's nothing more than a character building exercise. Ever seen a winning no limit player who wasn't willing to push all his chips into the pot? Yeah, me neither.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I call bullshit on each and every one of you who advocates not playing games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me be clear about my position. I'm ok with acting a bit less interested in a woman than you truly are. Behaving like an overeager puppy never gets you anywhere.

What I do have a problem with is mixing the message with all of this goofy plotting. I just can't be anymore adamant about this, so I'm going to type it in all caps. Ready?

NEVER DELIVER A MIXED MESSAGE TO A WOMAN CONCERNING WHETHER YOU WISH TO BE HER FRIEND OR WHETHER YOU WISH TO BEND HER OVER AND RAM HER REPEATEDLY WHILE SHE SCREAMS YOUR NAME.

This is rule number f-ing one, fellas. Don't give her any wiggle room to string you along, play dumb, or just maybe honestly misread your intentions.

Follow this one rule, and you'll save more in time and heartache than you could ever imagine.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Dating is like poker. Selective aggression pays wonderful dividends. By all means be honest, be a friend.

But be aggressive. Look at her like she is a the juiciest steak you have ever seen and you haven't eaten all damn day. Look at her like you want her. Women love feeling wanted.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

As usual, I agree with the Hobbester.

I just have yet to see one female that doesnt play games. It's up to the dude to um, man up and play it straight.

Uh, and when playing it straight works on a college chick.... you lemme know.

Till then I'll act more confident than I feel, and assume they want me till they tell me differently.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

I skipped out on the original thread a while ago, so I don't know about any recent developments.

However, I see some major problems with your advice:

1) You are not considering the reverse implied odds. In short, you are assuming that Snowball can in fact spend 2 or 3 months working his way up to "bestest buddy" status w/o becoming even more fixated, then make this play and not cave in himself. And, of course, it will be even more heartbreaking for him should she just reply to the non-ultimatum with "okay, I understand" and leave it at that.

2) This is a tremendous amount of effort to expend on something which can just as easily be accomplished by cutting to the end result (not acting like it's a life-changing moment for him when he asks her out).

3) Starting a relationship off by misleading or outright lying to the other person is a sure recipe for an unhealthy and short-lived relationship. If he's just interested in getting her in the sack this is not an important consideration, but I got the distinct impression that he was interested in something longer-term than that. At some point, she will discover that she was duped into dating him (or he will feel it necessary to confess it to her), and will either be outraged that he tricked her like that, or find it rather pathetic that he needed to go through such an elaborate ruse rather than just asking her out in the first place.

4) In poker terms, this seems a lot like giving a free card with a flush draw showing. It is entirely possible (even likely, if she truly is as wonderful as Snowball portrays her as being) that she will meet someone else during the time that he is "working his way up the ladder" and become involved with that person. Not only will that make it less likely that she would give in and decide to date Snowball, but it would probably throw a pretty big monkey wrench into the whole "indispensible friend" aspect of the plan, as she would have this new beau.

5) You ignore the possibility that, rather than being dejected that she might lose her friendship with Snowball, she will instead be hurt and angry that he would give the friendship up over something as trivial as a jealous girlfriend or physical attraction to her.

It seems to me that the direct approach, as always, is the best one.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Harv's post is good. The thing most guys don't seem to be getting in these threads is that the main reason to man up and get it over with one way or another is that no woman is going to respect a guy who wastes a lot of time pretending, because it shows that you don't have anything better to do with your time. It isn't that women like a-holes, it's that they like guys who have interesting enough lives that they don't have time to waste bsing.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is to get to the top of the friends ladder, have her become emotionally dependent on you and then VERY DECISIVELY announce with NO WARNING and NO SNIVELING that you realize you are attracted to her and that it is best if you don't see each other again. Do not make it sound like it is an ultimatum! Make her think that you totally assume you have no chance with her. You are just making an announcement. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mmmm... maybe he SHOULD write The Theory of "Poke-Her"

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Sklansky's elaborate plan is excellent. All of you who propose using the "this is not an elaborate plan" plan are walking into battle blind.

This whole this is about plans. She has a plan and god help his soul, he better damn well have a plan too. The more elaborate and unexpected his plan is, the better. Its gotta be like at least 3 steps and maybe even more than that. If one of the steps involves her getting drunk, you've got a whole bunch of backdoor outs to the backdoor nut.

Worst case scenario, you can try to get in on one of her friends, and then use her friend to jump ships. This works even better if her friend was cheating on a boyfriend with you.

Re: Controversial Last Ditch Advice for Snowball 138
 

Which do you suppose would sell more copies? Dating for advanced players by David Sklansky or Dating for dummies by The guy who wrote men are from mars woman are from venus.

I used to think it would be the advanced players version but after seeing pumping iron being out sold by sweating to the oldies I am not so sure anymore.