Odd dillema
 

Ok, in a lot of the So Cal games I play in, males of a certain ethnicity....and I am not saying which one since the PC police on this board like to scream racism the minute you mention any specific race or ethnic group.....like to peek at their cards when no one is looking and then proclaim that they are raising blind. Usually no one sees them look at their cards but me.

Now suppose a fish is calling down one of these guys. I know the guy only does this with a high pocket pair. Also suppose the "raising blind" guy has really pissed me off.

How wrong would it be for me to inform the fish on the flop that the guy actually had looked at his cards before raising?

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Ok, in a lot of the So Cal games I play in, males of a certain ethnicity....and I am not saying which one since the PC police on this board like to scream racism the minute you mention any specific race or ethnic group.....like to peek at their cards when no one is looking and then proclaim that they are raising blind. Usually no one sees them look at their cards but me.

Now suppose a fish is calling down one of these guys. I know the guy only does this with a high pocket pair. Also suppose the "raising blind" guy has really pissed me off.

How wrong would it be for me to inform the fish on the flop that the guy actually had looked at his cards before raising?

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1. Why let the 'blind' raisers know that you're aware of this? Seems like valuable information to have, and to keep secret.

2. Exactly why was it important to mention that they were of a certain race? Why not just say you know certain players who lie about raising blind? I think being PC has gone over the line too, but unnecessarily phrasing your story that way kinda opens it up..

Re: Odd dillema
 

Its one player to a hand. If you are talking about telling players during the hand that is totally unacceptable.

If you want to tell players that he does this in between hands I don't think its a rules violation or unethical, but I don't what you think you have to gain by doing this.

Re: Odd dillema
 

completely unethical, but it's still +ev and it's unlikely to get you tossed. take your pick

Re: Odd dillema
 

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2. Exactly why was it important to mention that they were of a certain race? Why not just say you know certain players who lie about raising blind?

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this is exactly the type of pc bullsh1t he was talking.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Ok, in a lot of the So Cal games I play in, males of a certain ethnicity....and I am not saying which one since the PC police on this board like to scream racism the minute you mention any specific race or ethnic group.....like to peek at their cards when no one is looking and then proclaim that they are raising blind. Usually no one sees them look at their cards but me.



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im just gonna take a shot in the dark, do these guys happen to be blacks?

Re: Odd dillema
 

you racist! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Odd dillema
 

I don't know about this one. Yes, it is definetely one player to a hand but I have a serious problem with angle shooting. I don't think outing an angle shooter is a bad thing.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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2. Exactly why was it important to mention that they were of a certain race? Why not just say you know certain players who lie about raising blind?

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this is exactly the type of pc bullsh1t he was talking.

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Adding the information that people are of a certain race is stereotyping since it is pointless to the thread. I'll be on the lookout for these people in the future.

Re: Odd dillema
 

I'd say it gets more hazy the longer into the hand you wait. But if it's a consistent thing, I don't see any problem with responding immediately to their "I'm raising blind" with "No you're not, you just looked at your cards."

Declaring a blind raise that's not really blind is sleazy and deserves to be called out. It's one thing if people are going to lose because of bad luck or bad play; that's the game. It's not the game, and not ok, if people are going to lose because someone decided it wasn't necessary to play the game fairly.

Re: Odd dillema
 

Would it be OK to call him on it while you still have cards, even though you know you are going to fold?

I say bad etiquette, but probably not unethical.

Similar to someone raising, then you making a point of saying they always raise with good hands while you and others still have cards.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Similar to someone raising, then you making a point of saying they always raise with good hands while you and others still have cards.

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Not at all. The point isn't the predictability of the play, it's the outright lie involved.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Similar to someone raising, then you making a point of saying they always raise with good hands while you and others still have cards.

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Not at all. The point isn't the predictability of the play, it's the outright lie involved.

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Lying is allowed in poker. My point could have easily said "you are a good player, I'm going to fold" or "I gotta call you, cuz you are unlucky". This indicates that you have analyzed the situation AND ARE NOW BROADCASTING YOUR "INFORMATION" TO THE TABLE. You are potentially affecting others in their decision making. That is the ethics/etiquette question. Not whether you should expose a lie.

Re: Odd dillema
 

You shouldn't let these [censored] angle shooters mess up the game. What happens when the angle shooter turns over a big hand and emabarrasses the other player? Does the other player go play somewhere else or does he get pissed off and begins to play better?

You go from having a fun loose (easy) game to a bunch of tight ass rocks and angle shooters and the only one than wins is the rake.

Re: Odd dillema
 

This is not an angle. This is the equivalent of an experienced player sitting down and saying that he never played before.

And I don't think this kind of play tightens the game, in fact i think it loosens up the play. If players think he isgiving action they tend to give action as well. He tells them he is playing blind and then turns over a big hand so they decide to try it since it works for him.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Similar to someone raising, then you making a point of saying they always raise with good hands while you and others still have cards.

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I know it happens all the time, but I don't know why you think its appropriate?

Re: Odd dillema
 

Sure, deception is part of the game. But IMO this is over the line, more in the area of declaring a $100 bet and only putting in $95.

Re: Odd dillema
 

This is not the equivalent of shorting the pot. This is the equivalent of pretending that you are considering a fold when you have the nuts.


The more interesting ethics question is the player who is first to act on a hand who after the flop comes announces that he checked in the dark (when in fact he did no such thing).

Now this a player actually lying about his GAME ACTION. And I see this happen all the time. (also players looking at their cards and then announcing they are playing blind is something I see often -- from players of multiple ethnic backgrounds).

Re: Odd dillema
 

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This is not an angle. This is the equivalent of an experienced player sitting down and saying that he never played before.

And I don't think this kind of play tightens the game, in fact i think it loosens up the play. If players think he isgiving action they tend to give action as well. He tells them he is playing blind and then turns over a big hand so they decide to try it since it works for him.

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Your post should have just been, I am Clueless.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Similar to someone raising, then you making a point of saying they always raise with good hands while you and others still have cards.

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I know it happens all the time, but I don't know why you think its appropriate?

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I find it very inappropriate myself. I was just providing a different common example of the same situation the OP is facing. The situation is whether to divulge strategically important information while a hand is in play.

Re: Odd dillema
 

I just want to know the ethnicity.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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This is not an angle. This is the equivalent of an experienced player sitting down and saying that he never played before.

And I don't think this kind of play tightens the game, in fact i think it loosens up the play. If players think he isgiving action they tend to give action as well. He tells them he is playing blind and then turns over a big hand so they decide to try it since it works for him.

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Your post should have just been, I am Clueless.

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Well when you can't admit that you are wrong -- go ad hominem

Re: Odd dillema
 

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I just want to know the ethnicity.

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CAUCASIAN [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Odd dillema
 

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I just want to know the ethnicity.

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CAUCASIAN [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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So these three guys walk into a poker room -- a white guy, a black guy, and an asian...

Re: Odd dillema
 

Nice big word, I'll have to google it later. If you don't think this is an angle shoot or this type of play won't change the complection of the table, you need to pull your head out of your dictionary and pay attention to the game.

Re: Odd dillema
 

I'd keep the information to myself and when you have a big pocket pair, you can act like you're playing a truly random hand and nail him. If you want to out the guy(s), just make a big deal of looking at your cards, and then announce your own "blind" raise.

For the record, I don't think this is an angle shot. Just good, honest lying. You wouldn't care if someone said, "I'm going to raise my 72o this time and see what happens," would you?

Re: Odd dillema
 

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Nice big word, I'll have to google it later. If you don't think this is an angle shoot or this type of play won't change the complection of the table, you need to pull your head out of your dictionary and pay attention to the game.

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Whats the angle? lying about his hand? He's representing that his cards are any two random cards when he knows what they are. What makes that an angle. Thats deception which is a part of poker. Or I suppose you think a check raise is an angle? Perhaps you think the game should be played with the cards face up?

I never said that this didn't affect the complection of the game (players announcing that they are playing blind certainly affects the complection of the game -- the fact that they are lying about probably has very little affect on the complection of the game). In fact if you read my post, (I know that you had a problem with the big words) you will see that I didn't say it had no effect, I said that the effect would be to loosen the game not tighten it as you suggested.

Why do you think this tightens the game up?

Re: Odd dillema
 

When people discover they have been tricked, they do not get happier and looser, they either leave or they are out to get the guy that tricked them. They do this by playing better.

It might suprise you to learn that many of the players know how to play better but it isn't any fun. Most of them play loose because it is fun and they are there to enjoy themselves. So after someone changes their mood they go from donking around having a good time to paying attention to their game.

You seem to have the belief that everyone at a B$M is completely clueless. Some are clueless but most don't care, they are there to have a good time so anything that makes them pay attention to their game tightens the table.

The worst thing that you can do when playing live is anything that slows down the game or decreases the fun at the table.

Re: Odd dillema
 

But they only discover they have been tricked if you tell them. Keep your mouth shut and they don't know any better. If they see it for themselves then they haven't been tricked.

your argument about keeping the game fun is fine, but then I know people who think the game isn't fun if someone is check raising, and others who think its not fun if the guy next them always straddles their big blind, others who get upset if the betting is capped preflop every hand.

It seems to me that games in which people are raising blind tend to be fun games. If the players think this is going on then they are having the same kind of fun as if it really is happening. I have never seen anyone get upset because they catch a "blind" raiser looking at his cards, when this happens most people seem to laugh about it as the guy who got caught tries top come up with some excuse.

Re: Odd dillema
 

psand, it's a clear angle shoot. i think any knowledgeable b&m regular and any good dealer would call it that. steamboat falls into that category.

lying of this nature should not be tolerated. it's dishonest and cheating to resort to this tactic. if you want to win then outplay your opponents.

bwana

Re: Odd dillema
 

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psand, it's a clear angle shoot. i think any knowledgeable b&m regular and any good dealer would call it that.

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No way. Lying about your hand might not fly if honor is on the line, but it happens all the time in the poker room. I can raise and say I have AA whether I do or not. I can raise and say I have 72o whether I do or not. I can raise and say I don't know what I have whether I do or not. Hell, lots of people tell the truth about what they hold because many people won't believe them - that's really the same type of deception. If you're so susceptible to believing everything you hear, maybe poker's not for you - or you need an IPod.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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I can raise and say I have AA whether I do or not. I can raise and say I have 72o whether I do or not.

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EDIT: deleting parts. sorry im grouchy today.


You're talking about different circumstances and trying to apply them this situation.

To cast it in a different light:

A. simply lying about your cards during play is ok.
B. peaking at your cards and declaring youre raising blind is an angle shoot.
C. peaking at your cards and declaring a live straddle is cheating.

do you see similarities w/ each of them? yes but theyre not all the same and have different affects and ethics in the game.

bwana

Re: Odd dillema
 

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I can raise and say I have AA whether I do or not. I can raise and say I have 72o whether I do or not.

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EDIT: deleting parts. sorry im grouchy today.


You're talking about different circumstances and trying to apply them this situation.

To cast it in a different light:

A. simply lying about your cards during play is ok.
B. peaking at your cards and declaring youre raising blind is an angle shoot.
C. peaking at your cards and declaring a live straddle is cheating.

do you see similarities w/ each of them? yes but theyre not all the same and have different affects and ethics in the game.

bwana

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I'll agree that C is cheating. Why because the rule is that a live straddle is a blind bet (this is solved by the dealer disallowing a straddle called after the player has received cards).

But there is no significant difference between A) Lying about your hand during play and B) Lying about whether you looked at your hand.

You haven't offered any explanation as to why these two lies should be treated differently.

Re: Odd dillema
 

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A. simply lying about your cards during play is ok.
B. peaking at your cards and declaring youre raising blind is an angle shoot.
C. peaking at your cards and declaring a live straddle is cheating.

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I fail to see a difference between A and B. In either case you're lying about your hand. In B, you're just lying by implying that you have a random hand rather than a specific one.

C is certainly cheating and shouldn't be allowed by the dealer. The dealers around here declare the straddle only when they see the bet out before the cards are dealt. Once the card start flying, straddling is not permitted.

I'm grouchy today too. Let's see if there'a any coffee in the break room... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Odd dillema
 

I'll clarify a few things:

1.) It's a clear angle shoot from the perspective of the player declaring the "blind raise". These guys know what they are doing and are trying to screw with the table.

2.) The reason I mention the ethnic group...and it is an ethnic group, not a race....is because it happens a lot, maybe even everytime I play.

3.) Really the only reason I am looking for any guidance on this at all is that these players are real douches and totally piss me off. I want to know the best way to screw with these idiots. I figured the best way to do this is to let fishy know what is going on.

I mean, you basically have to be a douche to try and pull something like this.