Ruling in tourney
 

Tournament:
Heads up on the river, first to act (player A) is contemplating an amount to bet, but opponent (player B) mistakenly thinks it's showdown time and flips over his cards.

I always thought that in a tourney you cannot expose your hand until the hand is over. If you do your hand is dead... But I wasn't fully confident.

If the situation described above was in a cash game would the ruling be different?

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

I have never seen a rule that a hand is dead because it is exposed, but I keep hearing people claim it is. Under TDA rules a hand is not dead for being exposed, but the player MAY be given a time penalty.

Although I have seen a player penalized for a play like you describe I personally believe that if the error was legitimate error (by that I mean the player thought the other player had checked, not that he didn't know that it was against the rules), the player should not be penalized.


In a cash game there is no reason at for this to be a penalty or even considered against the rules when it is heads up.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

this is widely considered an angle shot

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

Simply put, I would say that the play resumes. If A wants to bet, he can bet, if he doesn't want to bet, he doesnt. Mistake or not, B made the mistake, so he pays for it by losing the hand or losing the extra bet.

Anyone think this is faulty logic here?

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

nope, I agree with you, though I think B should be warned and penalized if it happens again.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

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this is widely considered an angle shot

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What exactly is the angle here?

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

Trying to get a cheap showdown if his hand is fair but not strong, or inducing and picking off a bluff. I think there was a thread on this play in the WPT forum where Kirill Gerasimov did this a few times.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to get a cheap showdown if his hand is fair but not strong, or inducing and picking off a bluff. I think there was a thread on this play in the WPT forum where Kirill Gerasimov did this a few times.

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what he said

if someone asked me for a specific angle shot this would be it

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to get a cheap showdown if his hand is fair but not strong, or inducing and picking off a bluff. I think there was a thread on this play in the WPT forum where Kirill Gerasimov did this a few times.

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Well if he claims the other player checked that could be an angle, but merely turning over his cards doesn't get him a cheap showdown,

I don't know how you can gather from the information here that this could be an angle to induce a bluff (and I'm not convinced that inducing a bluff is an angle). In fact if this occurred in a cash game noone would consider it a problem. The only reason it is a problem in a tournament for cards to be exposed is that potentially impacts the other players (Player exposes his hand to keep a player from drawing against when if the hand wasn't exposed one of the two players would end up busting or being crippled -- I don't consider this an angle it just the justification for the rule against exposing cards)

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

Excerpted from Robert's Rules at www.homepokertourney.com.

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22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

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If he does this heads up, I say ok because he's not gaining any advantage but putting himself at a severe disadvantage if he's not all-in. Think about it, guy flips his cards before the first to act has done anything, that guy will either check/fold or bet now. If someone did this to me and didn't have the nuts, I either bet big or go all-in; pretty tough to call in this situation when I bet knowing his cards.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

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If someone did this to me and didn't have the nuts, I either bet big or go all-in; pretty tough to call in this situation when I bet knowing his cards.

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But he's going to suspect a bluff when you make a huge bet after you've seen his cards.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

True, but as in anything in poker it depends on the situation, your opponent and your opponent's perception of you.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

In my game it'd be a penalty. My penalties are escalating:

1) Warning
2) 10 min blind out
3) 20 min blind out
4) Disqualification

Even accidentally opening your hand while mucking gets a penalty.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my game it'd be a penalty. My penalties are escalating:

1) Warning
2) 10 min blind out
3) 20 min blind out
4) Disqualification

Even accidentally opening your hand while mucking gets a penalty.

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Are you saying you impose a penalty for mucking face-up when there is no further action? Or just when there is still action?

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

whoops, WITH action remaining.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

imposing a penalty in this situation is rather asinine. the player usually is only hurting themselves, and I've heard of some pros doing this simply to get a read. if you expose prematurely, the other player can still act. it gives them a great opportunity to use some good strategy

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

Then change TDA rules in your tournaments, or go to the TDA forums and get them to change it. It's preferable to killing the exposed hand.

Re: Ruling in tourney
 

The person is not only hurting themselves in tournament play (unles down to two players) exposing your hand can effect every other player.