What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

It is easy to focus on her mistakes, since she is obviously not a skilled player. But how did she get as far as she did? I can't be all luck.

I noticed she said in the official WSOP ESPN thread that she played tight aggresive. What percentage of the nonpros at the WSOP can you say that about?

It seemed like in the later stages she was a loose reraiser preflop. She was trying to avoid postflop play at which she was at a major disadvantage. It is possible to steal a lot of decent sized pots with this approach. Plus she is likely to get action for her big hands. She also sets up big gambles which give her a chance to get lucky.

I know everyone thinks it's amazing that she took so long to fold KJs to a 3rd raise allin by the Shiek and call with AJo to a third raise allin by Raymer. However, we don't know what kind of pot odds she was getting. Plus she was making loose reraises and her strong aggressive opponents may not have had the monster hands they had.

It is probable that she did not play quite this way earlier in the tournament. Here reraise strategy was probably an adaption to play with strong opponents and relatively shallow money.

Sklansky in TPFAP indicates that going allin a lot is the best way for a weak player to finish well in the WSOP.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

The reason she was calling/raising with so many weaker hands was so that she would lose a bunch of chips, and thus get more +EV opportunities.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

Stop defending her. She is terrible, she sucks, everything she did right was done unintentionally.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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It is easy to focus on her mistakes, since she is obviously not a skilled player. But how did she get as far as she did? I can't be all luck.

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Yes it can. Out of over 5,000 players it's no huge longshot that one will make the final few tables just by repeatedly getting lucky on all-ins. During her endless stall with the Shiek she even said she had doubled up with the the same hand (KJs) previously. Sounds like she probably got lucky on that one, my guess is her KJs wasn't ahead preflop that time either.

My problem wasn't with her good luck or her questionable calls. She just seemed really irritating, at least based on the hands they showed on espn. You could see the other players rolling their eyes during her stalling, and when she demanded a count of Raymer's chips after he had just told her exactly how many he had.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

there's no way she was getting pot odds to call a raise, reraise, third raise with KJ.

there's just no way.

if the blinds were a theoretical 1/2 and all raises were min-raises, then there'd be 3 in from the blinds, and raises of 4, 6, and 8. she'd need to call 8 to win 21, that's 2.5-1, with several left to act and 2 candidates for a call.

I can't find any way for her to rationalize how long she took there.

now, i switch sides. she finished in the top 20 out of 5600(is that right) by getting lucky, and only by getting lucky? i pass.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

How she accumulated chips I am not sure. I know she won a big pot with AA over KK. My theory is that early on many viewed her as weak tight because she was a rookie woman. They mislabeled her as she really was a calling station which are very dangerous if they hit cards. I know Juanda bluffed off alot of chips to here on an outer table.

By the featured table Pro's had recognized that she was in push/fold mode preflop and was a bit of a calling station and thus any time she would enter a hand and they had a premium holding they would then overbet all in with because they knew she had problem folding any hand with an A or K in it and would get into the the pot as a huge dog. She wasn't getting pot odds, believe me.

Remember that part of her rationale for calling with KJ is that she had double up with it earlier on an all in call preflop. Which is complete rookie/favorite hand thinking.

The only thing she was doing right was attempting to play an all in/fold format later in the tourney because of her skill level. But I think that it can easily be argued that she didn't even know how to play that strategy correctly as she went all in as a dog with AQ, AJ, A7 and almost KJ, yet still lucked out and won 2/3. But at the very least by gambeling preflop she never got her money in drawing dead which many that got ousted from the WSOP did.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I noticed that after she flopped an Ace in the QQ vs. A7 hand and went on to win that hand, that her celebration was 'done right'. That's more than can be said about many of the players.

IMO, the only thing she did wrong was take too long. She may not have played stellar poker every hand but she played to the best of her ability which is about all anyone can do. I actually like the way she stood up to Shawn when he instantly called the clock on her (while she was waiting for an 'accurate' chip count) and then proceeded to take the time she felt she needed.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Dynasty

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

the pros aren't trying to bully someone calling allin with A7 (for the love of god) or AJ after it went raise, reraise, reraise. No Pro is bullying this person. If they are trying to run her over they are running her over with the best hand by a large margin (no pro regardless of what Paul Phillips say is looking to go 55/45 coinflips with pocket 4's against her, at this stage and her stacks).

So I don't consider it trying to run over someone with the significantly better hand.


What she did right? About 400,000 things she did right.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I think she was right to object to having the clock called on her immediately when Raymer's chips were being counted.

Other than that, ESPN didn't really show anything she did right.

Sklansky talks about moving all-in as a strategy for a weak player in a tournament, NOT calling all-ins with garbage hands like weak A's and KJ (which is what she seemed to be doing in the hands that espn showed).

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I found it extremely irritating when she asked for Raymer's count (I think 1.3mil) and he answered clear and concise, but she wanted it again. It was as if she completely ignored his answer and only believed the dealer.

As far as the amount of skill it took for her to get there, she knows that Aces are high, and suited cards are pretty.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I found it extremely irritating when she asked for Raymer's count (I think 1.3mil) and he answered clear and concise, but she wanted it again. It was as if she completely ignored his answer and only believed the dealer.

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What if Raymer miscounted and really had 2.3 million...or maybe just conveniently forgot what he had and 'guessed' wrong? I know Greg always knows how many chips he has and wouldn't angle shoot like that but still...aren't you just taking your opponent's word for it when they give you their chip count? Why not get an official count?

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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there's no way she was getting pot odds to call a raise, reraise, third raise with KJ.

there's just no way.

if the blinds were a theoretical 1/2 and all raises were min-raises, then there'd be 3 in from the blinds, and raises of 4, 6, and 8. she'd need to call 8 to win 21, that's 2.5-1, with several left to act and 2 candidates for a call.

I can't find any way for her to rationalize how long she took there.

now, i switch sides. she finished in the top 20 out of 5600(is that right) by getting lucky, and only by getting lucky? i pass.

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She mucked, didn't she? Maybe she is a really good actress who took the whole "boy I'm laying down this time but you better watch it next time" agonizing act far enough to be believable for once.

After that performance, you would seriously worry about shoving in with a 99, knowing she might just call you with KJ.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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there's no way she was getting pot odds to call a raise, reraise, third raise with KJ.

there's just no way.

if the blinds were a theoretical 1/2 and all raises were min-raises, then there'd be 3 in from the blinds, and raises of 4, 6, and 8. she'd need to call 8 to win 21, that's 2.5-1, with several left to act and 2 candidates for a call.

I can't find any way for her to rationalize how long she took there.

now, i switch sides. she finished in the top 20 out of 5600(is that right) by getting lucky, and only by getting lucky? i pass.

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She mucked, didn't she? Maybe she is a really good actress who took the whole "boy I'm laying down this time but you better watch it next time" agonizing act far enough to be believable for once.

After that performance, you would seriously worry about shoving in with a 99, knowing she might just call you with KJ.

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She didn't show it. I think it's more likely that if she were acting she was trying to induce a bluff later on by convincing her table that she could be forced to lay down a monster hand.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I found it extremely irritating when she asked for Raymer's count (I think 1.3mil) and he answered clear and concise, but she wanted it again. It was as if she completely ignored his answer and only believed the dealer.

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What if Raymer miscounted and really had 2.3 million...or maybe just conveniently forgot what he had and 'guessed' wrong? I know Greg always knows how many chips he has and wouldn't angle shoot like that but still...aren't you just taking your opponent's word for it when they give you their chip count? Why not get an official count?

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farha used that move; i read it on a cardplayer update. he pushed in; the guy asked him how much he had, an he said 500k, when it was only 70k or so. you can lie about your stack all you want, which is why it's smart to have a dealer count.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

were they hand to hand at this point or does anyone think she may have been trying to sneak up a few spots in the $?

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

My wife's comment (who watches about 30 minutes of poker a year and hasn't played a game beyond war):
"How did she make it this far in?"

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

Looking at the Cardplayer.com report, they were around 37 at this point, and was about a 40k difference between 36th and 37th. I don't think they were doing H4H between the various money levels, maybe when it was at 28 there was something like that.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I found it extremely irritating when she asked for Raymer's count (I think 1.3mil) and he answered clear and concise, but she wanted it again. It was as if she completely ignored his answer and only believed the dealer.

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What if Raymer miscounted and really had 2.3 million...or maybe just conveniently forgot what he had and 'guessed' wrong? I know Greg always knows how many chips he has and wouldn't angle shoot like that but still...aren't you just taking your opponent's word for it when they give you their chip count? Why not get an official count?

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farha used that move; i read it on a cardplayer update. he pushed in; the guy asked him how much he had, an he said 500k, when it was only 70k or so. you can lie about your stack all you want, which is why it's smart to have a dealer count.

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Farha was joking - he had under 20K if I recall correctly, and said "about 700K or so." Anyone who took the time to look at his stack would realize he was not serious.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

There is no law against being a bad player and getting lucky and advancing deep in a tourney. I won a MTT on Party two months ago where I cracked Aces twice all-in preflop in the second hour. I think I played poorly in that tourney, yet I won, and I have no reason to feel guilty about it.

The only objectionable thing Tiffany did in my opinion was taking forever to make decisions. While this would certainly be annoying at the table, none of us (other than Fossilman) was at the table with her so our lives were not adversely affected.

Thirdly, calling someone a moron (or moran, maroon, or one of the many other spellings I have seen on here) becuase he/she is a bad player is simply not justified. She is an attorney who plays poker for fun, got lucky, won a seat, and advanced very deep in the WSOP. Who cares if she got lucky in a ton of key pots? That is no reason to have to defend yourself. Would anyone on here forfeit their prize money from a tourney if he advanced much further than he should have? I notice people on here are very hostile to the players that make poker profitable for them. If you think someone is a "donkey", that is a reason to be polite and and encourage him or her to play more, not to complain if he/she happens to get lucky.

Tiffany is good for poker, whereas players like Stillman and Friedman are bad for poker. She handled herself with class, didn't go crazy when sucking out on players, and didn't berate others. It is a good story when a 1/2 player makes it this far in a tourney. Tiffany, good luck in the future, don't listen to what the people on here are saying.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I have never read a bad post by you, until now. I will never believe she's anything but horrible. Horribly horrible. Total fish.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

the AJ call was awful. Was another $1.1 million chips I believe.
She even said, there was a raise, a reraise and a 3rd raise. yeah...AJ can't be ahead, and actually has to be behind. Raymer isn't pushing with TT.

I think we now have a new winner for worst played AJ, passing Shipley's play vs Varkonyi a few years back.
At least Shipley then stated "I have nothing"

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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the pros aren't trying to bully someone calling allin with A7 (for the love of god) or AJ after it went raise, reraise, reraise. No Pro is bullying this person. If they are trying to run her over they are running her over with the best hand by a large margin (no pro regardless of what Paul Phillips say is looking to go 55/45 coinflips with pocket 4's against her, at this stage and her stacks).

So I don't consider it trying to run over someone with the significantly better hand.


What she did right? About 400,000 things she did right.

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NL FOOL Did you fail reading comprehension? Try re-reading my post. I said early on like Day 1 and 2 some pros and other players tried to bully her thinking she would be weak tight leading to her gaining a stack, not the televised session. There was a lot of Cardplayer reports with Juanda and other pros trying to bluff her not realising she would go to the felt with marginal hands like KJ. She was a calling station running hot. By Day 3 the pros had figured this out and were no longer trying to run her over but instead lure her to call with a marginal hodings when they were holding a premium hand because they knew she couldn't lay down AJ. Many succeeded at doing exactly this but she sucked out on them.

Why do you think she thought the pro's at the final table where trying to bluff her? Because guys like Juanda had tried to do so earlier.

The pros changed gears on her at the televised table while she still thought they were trying to bluff her thus resulting in alot of terrible calls by Tiffany. They knew that if they went all in with KK that she would actually call with marginal holdings as she didn't want to play post flop. So they would extremley overbet preflop all in with hands like KK and AA to get her to call with something like AJ because they knew she was a calling station. They weren't trying to bully her by the TV Aired feature table, they were attempting to take advantage of her calling station tendencies.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

On behalf of attorneys everywhere, I want to apologize for the damage that Williamson has done to our profession's reputation for intelligence.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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On behalf of attorneys everywhere, I want to apologize for the damage that Williamson has done to our profession's reputation for intelligence.

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I think this comment does a lot more damage to your profession's reputation for intelligence than her example. Not that your profession's reputation for intelligence is all that good to begin with.

Gary

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

What did Tiffany do right?

She won a 10 pound tournament in London which got her to the Rio where she won a satellite to get in and beat 99.7% of the field.

So she's not a skilled player and everyone's ripping on her. Big deal.

I think she showed good temperment at the table and her stalling tactics bugged the crap out of everyone at the table. Good for her. Anything you can do to get someone tilted towards you is good in my book.

She realized she was living the dream that all of us have and took it in and enjoyed it. As everyone tears their hair out, or what's left of it, watching her will pull more fish into the game and next year's WSOP. It's all good.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I have never read a bad post by you, until now. I will never believe she's anything but horrible. Horribly horrible. Total fish.

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So what?

Why are people so hostile about this?

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

Without question she was 100% stalling as a tactic to move higher up in the money.

Since this was a once in a lifetime cash for her I can't really judge someone trying to get the most money out of the situation, however she should be honest and admit this.

LIke when she asks Raymer for a count and he tells her and then she asks the dealer for a count, I'm 100% with Shiek on calling the clock on her. She just wanted to maximize the amount of time she had to act.

I think its like some other poster said, its similar to the spelling bee finals where they ask all those stupid questions to get extra time to think

"Can I get a count? Name? Country of Origin? etc."

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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Without question she was 100% stalling as a tactic to move higher up in the money.

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There is definitely doubt here. Watching her on ESPN, it seemed she was genuinely having a hard time making her decisions.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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the pros aren't trying to bully someone calling allin with A7 (for the love of god) or AJ after it went raise, reraise, reraise. No Pro is bullying this person. If they are trying to run her over they are running her over with the best hand by a large margin (no pro regardless of what Paul Phillips say is looking to go 55/45 coinflips with pocket 4's against her, at this stage and her stacks).

So I don't consider it trying to run over someone with the significantly better hand.


What she did right? About 400,000 things she did right.

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NL FOOL Did you fail reading comprehension? Try re-reading my post. I said early on like Day 1 and 2 some pros and other players tried to bully her thinking she would be weak tight leading to her gaining a stack, not the televised session. There was a lot of Cardplayer reports with Juanda and other pros trying to bluff her not realising she would go to the felt with marginal hands like KJ. She was a calling station running hot. By Day 3 the pros had figured this out and were no longer trying to run her over but instead lure her to call with a marginal hodings when they were holding a premium hand because they knew she couldn't lay down AJ. Many succeeded at doing exactly this but she sucked out on them.

Why do you think she thought the pro's at the final table where trying to bluff her? Because guys like Juanda had tried to do so earlier.

The pros changed gears on her at the televised table while she still thought they were trying to bluff her thus resulting in alot of terrible calls by Tiffany. They knew that if they went all in with KK that she would actually call with marginal holdings as she didn't want to play post flop. So they would extremley overbet preflop all in with hands like KK and AA to get her to call with something like AJ because they knew she was a calling station. They weren't trying to bully her by the TV Aired feature table, they were attempting to take advantage of her calling station tendencies.

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This is interesting, and explains the overbet pushes with big hands and why she thought they were bluffing.

Brunson has a story in <u>Super System</u> about some calling station who finished high in an early WSOP where he was literally the worst player in the tournament. All these top pros tried to run him off hands, and it was like they were giving him a donation.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I agree that she made some horendous plays, but I cant understand how everyone is all up in arms, it was suited right?

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I have never read a bad post by you, until now. I will never believe she's anything but horrible. Horribly horrible. Total fish.

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So what?

Why are people so hostile about this?

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I don't know. It just sort of irks me that anyone could ever consider her good. I don't know. I'm in a bad mood. Sorry.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

She took forever to make decisions throughout the entire tournament. She had the clock called on her several times, not just when she was at the featured table.

It is pretty apparent that while she does have to have some poker skill to get that far, she did make it to Binion's more on luck than on skill.

The only thing that annoyed me about her was how long she took to make decisions that really should have been easy lay-downs. Aside from that, I happy for her that she had such a successful WSOP. Luck is a factor in poker and luck was with her during the Main Event.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right *DELETED*
 

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Post deleted by Dynasty

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WTF? 1000's of posts flaming this tool and you delete mine? What gives

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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Without question she was 100% stalling as a tactic to move higher up in the money.


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Yes, I guess that's the other reason she could have had for taking so much time. It really did seem like an (exceedingly poor) acting job to me. I didn't buy the "oh, damn, I can't believe I was forced to fold this . . ." line at all.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I can't understand how anybody is defending her as a player or as a person at the table. She was disrespectful and didn't know any poker etiquette.

She asks for a chip count on Raymer and when he answers her (Very Clearly), she looks at the dealer and asks for a count, blatantly disregarding what Raymer said. That pissed Shekain off and that is why he asked for the clock. That is the defending world champ. Have some respect. Also, she is contemplating a million dollar+ pot and decides she is going to stroll into the crowd. No need to do that with KJ. I love when she asked Shekain for a count. Like that was necessary in that position. His quick response was great. She has no idea what she is doing. I guarantee if people who played with her for most of that tourney posted here they would have negative things to say about her play and etiquette, or lack there of.

I understand that this is what amateurs do but she took it to a whole new level with her betting and antics.

The bottom line is these players are playing for $7.5 million dollars and she is playing it like it’s your regular home game. There was no strategy or reasoning to her three horrible plays on TV. Please stop quoting Sklansky as if that is why she was moving all in.

BTW, is everybody ready for Raymers bad beat, not that I was happy to hear about it. I just can't wait to see the actual betting and reactions. I hear it is one of the worst of the tournament, if not the.

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I think its like some other poster said, its similar to the spelling bee finals where they ask all those stupid questions to get extra time to think

"Can I get a count? Name? Country of Origin? etc."

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You are wrong on this. Spelling bees have everthing to do with language of origin -- germanic, latin, greek, etc. HUGE determining factor in constructing the spelling

'Zarzuela...... Can you use it in a sentence?'- from some spelling bee

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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I have never read a bad post by you, until now. I will never believe she's anything but horrible. Horribly horrible. Total fish.

[/ QUOTE ] check it

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

I agree with Dynasty. Why is this such a big deal?

Just the fact that we are on 2+2 shows that the majority of us play more poker than the average player, and know more about it as well.

We should all be aware by now that the best player doesnt always win, or advance deep. Why get mad over short term resuts? Jealousy? Envy?

Was a big deal made when Moneymaker won? If so, why? If not, why not?

Re: What Tiffany Willaimson did right
 

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Why are people so hostile about this?

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It's amazing that people are so hostile about it. She has said she's a beginner. I think the hositilty generally stems from (to quote a poker pro that posts here occasionally) the difference between "look how great I am" and "look how much you suck".