K4o
 

MP2 - LAG (40/13/2)
Everyone else - Typical Party 2/4 players. Loose/Passive PF; Many mistakes after the flop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

What do you guys think?

Re: K4o
 

I think this is a clear fold p/f. That said I don't like the raise on the flop, surprised you got everyone to fold there...that said turn and river look good.

Re: K4o
 

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I think this is a clear fold p/f.

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I disagree. You're going to need to give a more detailed explanation to convince me.

Re: K4o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a clear fold p/f.

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I disagree. You're going to need to give a more detailed explanation to convince me.

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I just would not like to play k4o in a multiway pot. Could easily be dominated here and the hand has very little value. This could get 3 bet or capped preflop as there are still players left to act. This seems clear to me, can you please
elaborate on this call?

Re: K4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 - LAG (40/13/2)
Everyone else - Typical Party 2/4 players. Loose/Passive PF; Many mistakes after the flop.

I don't think the amount of mistakes these players make compensate for the call still. The hand I believe is just too trashy.

Re: K4o
 

Preflop: fold. I think that you need to give us more of a reason why this hand is playable, and not the other way around. 13 pfr isn't THAT high. You are in bad shape against- any pair that is raising here, a bunch of better kings, Ax. Wait for a better spot against this guy. You have good position on him, wait for a hand and 3 bet him. You don't want to be playing a multiway pot with K4o.

Re: K4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a clear fold p/f.

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I disagree. You're going to need to give a more detailed explanation to convince me.

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This is just such a weak hand to play against a limper, a semiLAG and some potentially loose blinds. What sort of flop are you hoping for?

Re: K4o
 

why not bet the turn when you have fold and suckout equity and likely get a free showdown if called? easy fold to a raise as you are probably not getting pushed of the best hand. plus you are getting your money in when you can still improve. i guess you are trying to encourage a bluff from Ace high?

Re: K4o
 

Some of my thoughts, quick:

- I'm getting 6-to-1 immediate on my call in a pot where I've already contributed 1.5SBs to the pot

- I'm not worried about these players raising behind me. Which probably pushes my odds up to 8- or 9-to-1

- The raiser is a lag and could be isolating a weak PF limper with a wide range - the chance that I'm dominated isn't as large from this player

I'm not saying that PF is perfect or not debateable - but I don't think it's as clear-cut as some are stating. The turn check was, in fact, an attempt to induce a river bluff.

Re: K4o
 

Its true you're up against on donkeys, but you're just not getting enough PF. Fold.

Re: K4o
 

Add me to the chorus of folks who don't like the PF call. I like the flop raise but after successfully getting it HU, I definitely would have bet the turn with the idea of a free showdown - you're letting a flush draw/over cards off too cheaply here.

Re: K4o
 

Are we all noting the investment I've already made and the odds I'm getting? If so - what do you need to be making this call. Or conversely - what's the lowest your going in hand strength to make this call?

Re: K4o
 

PF you're going to be getting somehting like 6:1 - 7:1, 8:1 if you're lucky. I'd start thinking about calling when I'm getting 12:1.

Re: K4o
 

6-1 isn't enough. I'd need upwards of 12-1, where I'm starting to get enough odds to just flop 2 pair or better. K4o is really a crappy hand and it loses value as more players are added to the hand.

I'd play a lot of hands here, though. About K9o or maybe K8o. Any suited. Offsuit 1 gappers. Etc.

Re: K4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are we all noting the investment I've already made and the odds I'm getting? If so - what do you need to be making this call. Or conversely - what's the lowest your going in hand strength to make this call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands I call with- J10s-KJs and 77-22
Everything else I 3 bet with against a loose raiser, excluding weak aces.

Re: K4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hands I call with- J10s-KJs and 77-22

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Wow, this is really a narrow range. You won't play, say, 87s here? What's your hand range for calling a raise in the BB w/ 3 or 4 people already in?

Re: K4o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Hands I call with- J10s-KJs and 77-22

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Wow, this is really a narrow range. You won't play, say, 87s here? What's your hand range for calling a raise in the BB w/ 3 or 4 people already in?

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Sorry I left out suited connectors. I haven't slept in like 24 hours.

Add: 65s-910s
a couple double gappers.

Re: K4o
 

I think you were tilting...

note: see 82s hand.

Re: K4o
 

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I think you were tilting...
note: see 82s hand.

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It was permanent tilt then - these 2 hands happened days apart. Just haven't gotten around to posting them.

Re: K4o
 

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Are we all noting the investment I've already made

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Just cos you were sitting out and not patient enough to wait for the blinds to come around again does not justify spewing chips the way you did. Its trash total and utterly, more so multiway, if you could isolate to get heads up maybe if your post flop play is good, multiway forget it.

Re: K4o
 

I'd fold pre-flop. If my hand were suited, sure, but playing big little unsuited in a 3+way pot doesn't seem to me to be EV.

Post flop seems fine, I guess. Paying off a lag might suck, so it depends on your read. This could easily be a fold, too. Also, if I were committed to showdown I'd prob just bet the turn and check the river u/i.

Re: K4o
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are we all noting the investment I've already made and the odds I'm getting? If so - what do you need to be making this call. Or conversely - what's the lowest your going in hand strength to make this call?

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If you're going to look at your post as an "investmenet" than I think you should wait for the big blind. 6-1 isn't really a lot, in limit hold em.

I'd make this call with as little as, say 54s. 75s I'd play. I'd even play Q3s, probably. Big little offsuit hands are for suckers though.

Re: K4o
 

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Are we all noting the investment I've already made

[/ QUOTE ]
Just cos you were sitting out and not patient enough to wait for the blinds to come around again does not justify spewing chips the way you did. Its trash total and utterly, more so multiway, if you could isolate to get heads up maybe if your post flop play is good, multiway forget it.

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Please don't judge my patience.

I'm not trying to justify my play by having posted the BB+SB - I'm just suggesting that this prior investment is a factor. I was opening the discussion to how much of a factor it actually is.

Re: K4o
 

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I'm not trying to justify my play by having posted the BB+SB - I'm just suggesting that this prior investment is a factor.

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I'm sure you know the fact that you made the investment is not a factor. There's just 3/4bb extra dead money in the pot is all.

Re: K4o
 

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I'm not trying to justify my play by having posted the BB+SB - I'm just suggesting that this prior investment is a factor.

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I'm sure you know the fact that you made the investment is not a factor. There's just 3/4bb extra dead money in the pot is all.

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Which is what I meant - I just didn't say it well the first time.