Getting bet off top pair too much
 

heres 2 hands where i had top pair and i folded. were these right?

live 3/6
hand 1:the bettor is very aggressive and the raiser i havent seen much from

i have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in sb.

5 callers, i call, bb checks.

flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check(?), 3 checks, co bets, button raises, i...???

hand 2:both the bettor and raiser have been very aggressive.

i have QJ of [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in utg+1

i call, 3 callers behind me, blinds call

flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb bets, bb raises, i..?

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at....did u have no reads on the raisers in these hands bc that really would help

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

In both of these hands, the raiser is facing the field with calling 2 cold on a nearly drawless board. Most players wouldn't do that with flopped trips - they'd slow-play to try and get overcallers. In both hands you just limped in PF, so you don't have any reason to think that anyone puts you on a strong hand. In both hands the bettor is agressive and is betting out on a board that looks (to them) like a good spot to bluff. In hand 2, both the bettor and agressor are "very agressive" and this could easily be a steal/resteal attempt.

Remember that the paired board means that there are less ways for these guys to connect with it. A lot of agressive players think this way too, and they are going to play something like 77 more strongly on a Q88 board than on a QT2 board.

For these reasons I'd assume that you are ahead both times, and in both hands I'd 3-bet to protect a vurnerable top pair. Especially with agressive players betting and raising these flops, its just too soon to put anyone on trips.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

The first one definately looks weak tight. I don't think the buttons raise means you are beat. Especially since he didn't raise preflop, I think you are ahead of him. A lot of pocket pairs like this flop. I say 3-bet, and re-evaluate on the turn.

The second one is a little trickier. You do have a backdoor flush draw. With no reads, I might go for a three-bet, and bet/fold the turn UI. Against really passive players I might be able to find a fold. I don't think folding is bad though.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
heres 2 hands where i had top pair and i folded. were these right?

live 3/6
hand 1:the bettor is very aggressive and the raiser i havent seen much from

i have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in sb.

5 callers, i call, bb checks.

flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check(?), 3 checks, co bets, button raises, i...???

hand 2:both the bettor and raiser have been very aggressive.

i have QJ of [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in utg+1

i call, 3 callers behind me, blinds call

flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb bets, bb raises, i..?

[/ QUOTE ]

The next time you are in this game, I want you to do something for yourself.

RAISE.

Trust me on this, raising is fun, or PHAT! or cool, hip, wicked bad. Whatever your jargon, it's definetly one of the better aspects of the game. Apply pressure to the other players, put the screws to them and see what happens.

In the first hand I'm raising preflop. It's not going to make you tons of money but it will make you money and you get a chance to raise. Always a good thing. As you played it, you have to 3 bet this flop, clear out callers row behind you and see what the co and button do. You may be beat, but against aggressive players your not going to beat the majority of the time.

Now in the second hand, I may fold, or I may raise depending on how I feel about the blinds. Let's be honest, we didn't enter the hand hoping for top pair, but we didn't get a AKTs flop either did we? The way you describe the players I like a 3 bet, and I'm looking to get rid of the hand to any more aggression, and likely to any cold calls. By their nature the 8's are a little more dangerous paired than the 4's are.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

I raise both of these hands preflop.

Definitely bet the flop on hand one. Hand 2 probably plays differently if you raise preflop.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

I muck QJs utg+1 most of the time,

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

Yuck. This hand is pretty!

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. This hand is pretty!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but QJs utg+1 can get you in a lot of trouble depending on the texture of the game.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

Hand 1:
I don't raise preflop, as suggested by slavic. If the limpers are terrible we have an edge, but I think our edge rarely is big and I like to keep the pot small instead.

On the flop I probably just bet out, but given your check I think folding is terrible. Aggressive players will bet tons of hands in CO here. Not only worse Js but PP's like 99/88. The player raising seems to want to get rid of the rest of the field. We have no reason what so ever to put him on a 4, most likely he has a J and we have him outkicked. Folding here would be terrible IMO even though the pot is still not very big. 3-bet!


Hand 2:
I think the flop is a fold most often. In this case it's not unlikely for us to be up against flopped trips OR be outkicked. The pot is not big enough to be worth fighting for. Fold.


EDIT:
Now I've read most of the other responses. Some thoughts of others thoughts:
1. Folding QJs UTG+1 is bad IMO. Raise or call, depending on the table.
2. Raising in hand 1 preflop could be made if we have reads on the limpers as terrible.
3. I really think we need good reads on the blinds in hand 2 to make a 3-bet correct on the flop. Our investment is huge compared to the potsize and we have no clue where we're at. And as slavic said "By their nature the 8's are a little more dangerous paired than the 4's are".

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

Why did you check the flop in hand one? Were you sure the CO would bet if checked to and you planned on check/raising?
I would have bet.

In hand two i would have raised pre flop and as played i would have 3-bet the flop you have top pair and two nice backdoor draws. I think this is to much of a hand to be folding and cold calling may encourage people behind you to join in.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at

[/ QUOTE ]
My standard reply: Raising for information sucks.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at

[/ QUOTE ]
My standard reply: Raising for information sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I worded it incorrectly, but what I'm saying is I believe I have the best hand here but not positive so I would like to see the action after my reraise. If some1 comes alive or calls three cold its easy to release my hand or at least play cautiously. jeez crunch me and u are goin at it today [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

PF:
I especially don't like raising hand 1. AJo is not a good hand 6- or 7-way OOP. Hand 2 is very table dependent. With aggressive players behind you who will isolate a limp or only play for a raise with hands that dominate you, it's probably a fold. Based on this table it looks like a limp was correct. I only like a raise if I know I'll still get the pot at least 4 way.

Flop:
Hand 1 sure looks like a 3-bet. Button doesn't have a 4 because he wouldn't raise with one; he most likely has a J. CO probably doesn't have a 4 either. This also is a good place for a CC and a turn c/r. With such a dry board, a 3-bet won't fold anybody who wouldn't have already folded for 2 bets. You also give CO a chance to reraise if he's got a 4. And an aggressive player with a J isn't going to let the turn get checked around.

Hand 2: I would just fold. Your hand only has a moderate kicker. Your BDSD is two specific cards so it's only worth about 2/3 of an undiscounted out, and you have to discount both of your BD draws due to the risk of a FH. Also, since the bettors are from the blinds, there's a much better chance that one of them actually has an 8.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise both of these hands preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do sometimes. But not in these spots.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

Hand 1: 3-bet the flop.

Hand 2: Fold

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

thanks guys. im glad im not the only one whos unsure of what to do on these. i prolly should have bet out on hand 1, but i was very sure that a bet was coming from late position and i wanted to go for a checkraise. hand 2 is debatable about calling preflop, especailly since this game was very aggressive with losts of PF raising.

hand 1 i never got to see, but hand 2 the raiser had q4 and i would have been good.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

[ QUOTE ]
but hand 2 the raiser had q4 and i would have been good.


[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't mean your fold was bad. Sometimes you'll lay down the best hand and kick yourself. Sometimes one of the 3 people left to act will 3-bet the flop and you'll pat yourself on the back. Heck, sometimes the flop will get capped, the turn will be the 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and get capped, and the river will be the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and you'll have missed out on a 30BB pot.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

i would raise preflop in hand 1. i'm not sure this is standard. i would probably limp along with ATo, so take that fwiw. yes, AJo does not play well against a large field, and i suppose if the bb is calling everything this gets ugly. but you likely have the best hand, there's a very good chance one of these limpers has a worse A. but anyway, moving on.

on this flop you can't really protect your hand. you don't know from where a bet will come, if there will be one, and lots of people will call with anything. the board is raggedy. bet for value. once it comes back to you... you're in a tough spot... but button could be raising a LOT here if he's thinking enough to try to protect his hand. given this board, the CO doesn't need to beat a J to bet this, and the button doesn't need one to raise. let alone a 4. 3-bet and work from there. you'll be offering the field 3:13 and anything but the goods should go away, or will be incorrect to continue.

hand 2: i'd raise preflop, but if the table is excessively loose... this is also close, and the limp is fine.

i'm less sure on this. you have backdoor flush and straight draws to help you out, and a reasonable shot at having the best hand, but the blinds being the aggressors means (a) they're more likely than usual to be holding an 8, and (b) you're more likely to get capped and/or bet aggressively into again on the turn, regardless of what falls. still, if you pick up a flush or straight draw on the turn, it seems better to have the possibility, even if it is remote, to take a free card if it's offered. additionally, if you just call, some of these loosies might start overcalling, and you're about ready to get them out.

given your read, i'm just not sure you can assume you're behind and fold. in fact, i really dislike a fold in both circumstances. passive players, sure, you could let it go. here.... not so much.

Re: Getting bet off top pair too much
 

FWIW:

Odds that a XYY flop will give some opponent trip Ys, given that opponents play their hands randomly:

N_opp: % that someone has trips
1: 8
2: 16
3: 24
4: 31
5: 38
6: 45
7: 52

This is just a rough guide. People love bluffing at a paired flops, whereas trips love to slowplay. And, though I don't need to say it, people do not play randomly, so, this needs to be inflated/deflated denpnding on what Y is and the opponents.

Hand 1 : 44J

odds of YYY(5 opp) = 38%, hands of [4x] that will call in live 3/6: 10% .....
Any more math than this is silly, but it illustrates that you don't have to worry about 444 often, especially from the bettors. 3 betting will allow you to see who check-calls-3-cold then wakes up on the turn.

Forgive me.