AKo hand
 

MP's stats were like 18/15 but only over ~30 hands. i have not yet seen him go to showdown. basically looks like so far he's been raising preflop, betting, and getting people to fold. my questions:

0: should i have capped preflop? (in position i like to, but often i won't cap out of position against a "good" player)
1. should i have bet the flop?
2. should i have 3-bet the turn?
3. should i have checked the river?
4. am i retarded? (the answer to this is easy)

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (9.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Re: AK oddity
 

Whee my first post after an extended absence from online poker. This should be fun.

0. Even out of position I would cap this, its not established that he is a solid player yet.

1. Yes.

2. At this point you're looking at either a monster or a bluff-raise. Given that you did not cap preflop he's probably more likely to think the flop missed you, so I think he would raise with hands you beat like JJ-KK, AT-AQ. The only hand I can see beating you at this point is 88, so yes I like the 3-bet.

3. I would have fired again on the river. If he raised, I'd likely call.

Man i hope i'm not too rusty.

Re: AK oddity
 

0) no
1)I usually c/c and then donk turn, but this worked out well
2)yes
3)I actually really like this play. Sexy.

Re: AK oddity
 

Yeah definitely cap preflop. River looks like bet/fold. If you're not comfortable folding to a river raise, either way, but I would be given the heavy action thus far.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
3)I actually really like this play. Sexy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you still like it if it was checked through? I'm not sure...

Re: AK oddity
 

the Q is the only river i am checking. i will bet if any other card in the deck falls.

he obviously has an ace after he calls my turn 3-bet. he has AK, AQ, or maybe AJ. AQ is more likely than AJ because of his preflop 3-bet. so now that the worst card ever falls on the river, i check call because i hope he has AK. if he has AQ, he's going to raise (and i will want to call). if he has AK, there's no value in a bet anyway. if he has AJ, he still may value bet anyway.

if someone wanted to do some math, we could figure out how often he needs to have AJ (and not bet the river) compared to having AQ/AK here for a bet to be correct. i bet the number would seem unrealistic.

Re: AK oddity
 

What was your goal in betting the flop? Were you trying to go with a b/c, b/3b line? b/c, c/r? b/3b, b? That's a more interesting question than just if you should bet the flop. If you c/r the flop and bet the turn, I think you're loosing bets from a PP that might call you down if you bet, and you might shutdown a weaker A too early. A c/c, c/r line is similar. I think that betting out is correct.

Man, that's a hideous river. My gut said bet/fold, but I'm not so sure. On the off chance he has AJs, he's almost certainly betting if checked to, given his aggressive slowplay. He's also certain to call with it. I don't think there are any hands he can have here that will call if you bet, but check behind if you call. I think one bet is going in on this street no matter what. Given that, I want to see a showdown rather than bet/folding. I like your play.

Re: AKo hand
 

0. doesnt' mteter
1. meh.
2. yes!
3. meh.
4. hnto as retarded mas i was 2.5 hotrs ago;.

Re: AK oddity
 

Welcome back, Kaishin!

And no, I don't cap preflop, and yes, I definitely 3bet this turn.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
the Q is the only river i am checking. i will bet if any other card in the deck falls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point there. Also there is not a great chance of it being checked through given the previous play.

Man I am rusty...

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome back, Kaishin!

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was your goal in betting the flop? Were you trying to go with a b/c, b/3b line? b/c, c/r? b/3b, b? That's a more interesting question than just if you should bet the flop. If you c/r the flop and bet the turn, I think you're loosing bets from a PP that might call you down if you bet, and you might shutdown a weaker A too early. A c/c, c/r line is similar. I think that betting out is correct.

Man, that's a hideous river. My gut said bet/fold, but I'm not so sure. On the off chance he has AJs, he's almost certainly betting if checked to, given his aggressive slowplay. He's also certain to call with it. I don't think there are any hands he can have here that will call if you bet, but check behind if you call. I think one bet is going in on this street no matter what. Given that, I want to see a showdown rather than bet/folding. I like your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

good analysis of why we should be the flop. very nice. Also, against aggressive opponents sometimes I throw out a bet, c/r combo if I feel I'm becoming predictable.

Re: AKo hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
0. doesnt' mteter
1. meh.
2. yes!
3. meh.
4. hnto as retarded mas i was 2.5 hotrs ago;.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, this is good stuff. We'll have to point him in the direction of these posts the next time he goes on an ego trip (i.e., tomorrow).

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was your goal in betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't want to give him a chance to fold 88-KK. i want him to think i'm weak - and in doing so, let him hang himself by slowplaying his AJ/AQ hands. basically your thoughts reflect mine.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
And no, I don't cap preflop,

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?

Re: AK oddity
 

We're OOP. He's quite tight, espeically by 6 max standards. He's probably positionally aware, and he's in MP, nto button or a blind (especially SB). I don't think we're a big enough favorite against his range, especially OOP, to want to cap. There are a lot of players I will cap this against, and if there was a moran who called 3 cold in the pot paying me off, too, I'd be more inclined to cap.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And no, I don't cap preflop,

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

oop vs a good player we have a diverse enough arsenal of plays that we can play just about any flop. However, capping preflop takes away some of our plays.

Re: AK oddity
 

That is a very, very interesting point. You should consider fleshing that out into a new post.

Re: AK oddity
 

Dude the read is over 30 hands. We can't base much off it. I think we're missing out on too much value here. Of course I can see switching it up a bit but I think capping needs to be the main play here. Too good a hand for a 5-handed game.

Re: AK oddity
 

* grunch *

0: should i have capped preflop? (in position i like to, but often i won't cap out of position against a "good" player)

A good player will reraise with AA-TT, AK, AKs. So preflop you figure to be slightly behind so capping is probably -EV with AK.

1. should i have bet the flop?

Against the aforemention range of hands you are ahead of all but AA and tied with AK, AKs (actually you are behind A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as well). You are vunerable to paint to any paint falling so slow-playing is not an option. Bet for value.

2. should i have 3-bet the turn?

A non 8 heart is a great card for you. If Villian had been more agressive on the flop you might have tried a check/raise. But armed with the information you have he may be on a WA/WB line so bet away. The three bet is fine and +EV in the long run. If Villian has AA he missed a bet.

3. should i have checked the river?

If paint hits in this situation you do have to worry about QQ and some TAGs will reraise with AQ especially AQs so checking seeems correct (even if weak and timid [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

Re: AK oddity
 

Interesting, I suspected we're a small favorite so I fired up pokerstove and got shocked. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

1,417,787,712 games 1.982 secs 715,331,842 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 50.1287 % [ 00.43 00.07 ] { AA-77, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo }
Hand 2: 49.8713 % [ 00.43 00.07 ] { AKo }

Re: AK oddity
 

i think capping decreases our implied odds against 99, TT, JJ, and maybe QQ. like say we get an A or K high flop after we cap before the flop. i feel like he will find folds here much more often than if we call the preflop 3-bet and just lead out on these same flops. it may even cause him to spew chips on these same flops (thinking - "would this guy really bet into me if he actually had it?")

i really hate being forced into leading any flop just because i capped preflop, and then to be forced to make another slim call when he raises my flop bet (because now the pot is like 12 small bets back to me).

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, I suspected we're a small favorite so I fired up pokerstove and got shocked. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

1,417,787,712 games 1.982 secs 715,331,842 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 50.1287 % [ 00.43 00.07 ] { AA-77, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo }
Hand 2: 49.8713 % [ 00.43 00.07 ] { AKo }

[/ QUOTE ]
This range of hands is likely way too large as well, given villain's small, albeit statistically unproven, PFR.

Re: AK oddity
 

These are good points but I don't really mind having to lead flops heads-up that much. Oftentimes seems to play itself in this game. Another good thing about capping preflop is folding out 99 on QJ boards, etc, but I can also see your point about waiting.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
We're OOP. He's quite tight, espeically by 6 max standards. He's probably positionally aware, and he's in MP, nto button or a blind (especially SB). I don't think we're a big enough favorite against his range, especially OOP, to want to cap. There are a lot of players I will cap this against, and if there was a moran who called 3 cold in the pot paying me off, too, I'd be more inclined to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

15% raise is decently high for 6-max. If you aren't capping this preflop, are you going to showdown on a rags flop?

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're OOP. He's quite tight, espeically by 6 max standards. He's probably positionally aware, and he's in MP, nto button or a blind (especially SB). I don't think we're a big enough favorite against his range, especially OOP, to want to cap. There are a lot of players I will cap this against, and if there was a moran who called 3 cold in the pot paying me off, too, I'd be more inclined to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

15% raise is decently high for 6-max. If you aren't capping this preflop, are you going to showdown on a rags flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r flop, bet turn to try and fold another AK. If he 3bets flop, call and c/f turn UI. If he raises turn, fold. If he calls flop and turn, c/c or c/f river. I prob c/f.

Re: AKo hand
 

As for the hand, I really like the flop bet. He will often raise here with a weaker Ace in which case you can either call and c/r the turn or just go ahead and 3-bet. I prefer c/r though for the times he's got Ts - Ks.

The turn 3-bet is fine .. you're either splitting or vastly ahead. Once in a blue moon he's got AA but that's not even worth worrying about at this point.

Yeah, checking this river is fine only because it's a Q though.

Re: AK oddity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're OOP. He's quite tight, espeically by 6 max standards. He's probably positionally aware, and he's in MP, nto button or a blind (especially SB). I don't think we're a big enough favorite against his range, especially OOP, to want to cap. There are a lot of players I will cap this against, and if there was a moran who called 3 cold in the pot paying me off, too, I'd be more inclined to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

15% raise is decently high for 6-max. If you aren't capping this preflop, are you going to showdown on a rags flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r flop, bet turn to try and fold another AK. If he 3bets flop, call and c/f turn UI. If he raises turn, fold. If he calls flop and turn, c/c or c/f river. I prob c/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. Also, I'm pretty surprised at those pokerstove numbers. Looks like I'll be playing my AKo OOP against a 3-bet differently [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: AKo hand
 

mebbe cap pre-flop with AKs against the thinker, but not AKo
eh yeah, checkraise that flop. although if it misses the thinker, he may check behind.
his stop &amp; go is crazy. showdown time..let's see your AA
the check/call is good if he's been bluffing. You may just fold him if you bet out. You need to see his cards, as you said he hasn't shown down yet.

I dunno..

Re: AKo hand
 

Cap preflop.