Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($2164)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($1970)</font>
SB ($1572)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($2184)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($580)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($2774)</font>
UTG+2 ($1967)
MP1 ($500)
MP2 ($1922)
MP3 ($1900)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
UTG calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $100</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls $100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $80, UTG calls $80.

Flop: ($510) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $200</font>, UTG calls $200, Hero ?

Assume no reads, or insignificant amount of hands on players to come to any sort of conclusion.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I am really interested in hearing some reasoning behind folding here.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

i need to know something about these guys...
i like a kamikaze all in here, generally.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i need to know something about these guys...
i like a kamikaze all in here, generally.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my initial thought as well, but BB's move is very scary given UTG's stack size, IMO. It looks like he might be hoping for UTG to push, hero calls, BB push.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

BB got lucky doubling up against someone else, bought in as a short stack, I don't think he is very good. UTG is obviously a fishy short stack. I only have 100 hands on each, so that doesn't mean anything.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i need to know something about these guys...
i like a kamikaze all in here, generally.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my initial thought as well, but BB's move is very scary given UTG's stack size, IMO. It looks like he might be hoping for UTG to push, hero calls, BB push.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you do push here, it is imperative that you yell FVVVVCK IIIIT!!! as you slide in the chip.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

If he led into you with a set, that'd be a sick play. But most players just can't resist the temptation to check a set upfront for the big check-raise. It seems that he's more likely leading into you with something like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and hoping to three-bet all-in. I'd be tempted to shove right there knowing that I have a redraw against those hands.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I voted for raising, but the more I think about it the more I'm leaning toward calling. I think BB could be setting you up for an all in with a hand with great redraws, and flush draws might play with you for anything other than an all in which is a little dramatic though not a bad option.

Your A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a nice redraw card. I think I push against a turn bet with any non-spade, and probably call a bet on the turn if a spade falls off...depends on the bet size though. If checked to, I bet the turn heavy.

- C -

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

big pot now or big pot later
bb is gonna at least call, and utg can't fold
let's see the turn

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I mostly raise and sometimes call, but 8 people so far have said fold. people that say fold, shed light on your choice.

if I had to construct an argument for folding it would go something along the lines of a dude leading into 5 players one of whom raised PF can probably beat TPTK. but that's not a very good argument, so I want to hear one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I voted fold because I don't know how to play full ring and wanted to see results.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I can't see folding here. The most likely hand for BB here is something like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I think that there is a good chance that UTG has some kind of draw as well, maybe 45, with or without the spades. He might be sandbagging a set, but most weak players would fire it in with a set here.

If UTG has spades as well, then he and BB are drawing thinner than they think (and the risk to Hero of giving a free card goes down).

In BB and UTG are both on draws, it would be nice to push.

The problem is that Hero can't ignore the two players left to act. I am more worried about a set behind me than a set in front of me. For that reason, I favor a call for Hero here. If either of the players behind Hero has a set, they likely will blast away with this much in the pot and a spade draw on board. If either of the players behind Hero calls with spades, it isn't a disaster because I am pretty sure that BB, UTG or both have spades as well, so they all will be drawing relatively thin.

If the turn is a brick (i.e. no 2, 7, Q or spade), I consider getting it all in. If a spade hits, Hero should treat his spade redraw as a 4-5 outer, not a full draw, and do whatever makes sense.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mostly raise and sometimes call, but 8 people so far have said fold. people that say fold, shed light on your choice.

if I had to construct an argument for folding it would go something along the lines of a dude leading into 5 players one of whom raised PF can probably beat TPTK. but that's not a very good argument, so I want to hear one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll be one of the few suckers to pipe up about why I voted fold, then you guys can berate me for being so weak :-)

Essentially my reasoning for fold begins with the fact that BB got a pretty good price to call preflop with a variety of holdings. He then leads out into field of 5 players, including the PFR with a smallish bet, potentially looking for a cheap card (draw) or a big hand looking to weak lead/3bet someone's draw/worse made hand.

From there, UTG, who doesn't even have a pot raise left in his stack, simply calls (??). I'm not sure what range he would do this with, but it seems like he's not too afraid of others coming in after him, especially the PFR who could easily raise the pot after him. I took this as a sign of strength. he's certainly not trying to isolate a weak bet from BB by just calling.

I felt the combination of these plays lead to TPTK being no goot in this spot.

I'm not really sure what everyone who says "raise" is putting BB and UTG on with their actions. It seems like the best case we're looking at is some sort of combo draw out of BB and mid PP from UTG? If UTG had a mid PP and he thought it was good, wouldn't he push? Or does everyone think they have worse kings, or both have draws? Do short stack UTG's call in EP with suited connectors?

Ok feel free to beat up my swiss cheese logic. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: I didn't say anything about the players after Hero either, shouldn't they be considered? I think if the fold option was taken away from me, I would vote for calling and making a move on a safe turn where my equity is higher against the draw(s).

KoW

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

who said fold? lol!

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i need to know something about these guys...
i like a kamikaze all in here, generally.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was thinking the same thing, actually.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
who said fold? lol!

[/ QUOTE ]

I did I admit it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

With the ace of spades, I like calling here. As noted, the bet is especially scary since it is inviting UTG to push, which will just barely be a legal raise. I think folding getting 9:2 is not so hot, especially if there is a chance BB is a moron. (Does you not knowing this person mean he is not a regular in this game or you are not a regular in this game? If it is the former, the chance he is bad is higher I think). I'm not sure of my line going forward, but I don't think a raise accomplishes much here. Some worse hands fold, better hands stack you, maybe you get "lucky" and get the BB all in with a draw you are a favorite to, but if he is on a draw calling here and closing the action seems like the better play. If he has a set (entirely possible I think) he may freeze up if a scare card comes and let you off cheeply.

Edit - man did I misread this, I thought it was 3 way on the flop. 5 way, yuk. I'm leaning to raising here. I don't know how much though, since the pot is 1100 after you call, which makes things really awkward with effective stacks of about 1700 behind. Maybe raise to 800? Pushing seems a little yuckier than making it 800 all day.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he led into you with a set, that'd be a standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I had typed out a full reply arguing raising all-in if you think BB is bad and folding if you think he's quite good (I will often weak-ish lead like this with a flopped set to invite a raise from AK or AA protecting against draws here, makes sense he'd call the pf raise w/ pockets OOP as well).

However, I got to the end of my post and I still wasn't sure if calling could be the right answer. Any raise you makes seems difficult to play on later streets (except all-in, but I'd say there's quite a good chance BB or UTG has a made hand that beats you.. UTG has a short enough stack that he can't protect his hand, so a call would probably make sense from him).

This is very tough spot IMO, with the pot and stack sizes as they are, and two more players yet to act! With no strong reads I'm really not sure what to do here, all 3 options definitely have arguments behind them. I'd probably just call and see what happens, I think you may be able to get away from this cheaply that way or take it down on the turn if everyone slows down. I anxiously await replies from some of the great minds here. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Any thoughts to the fact that I also have two guys to act after me?

edit: every option seems to suck. If I call, and the other two guys call the pot is HUGE on the turn, if it bricks and they lead what are you going to do? fold? The shortstack probably has a king and is not going anywhere, so his entire stack is dead money, I feel like everyone knows this, if I raise, I can only see myself getting action from a better hand, or maybe a sick draw. I can't see raising and then folding to an all in, so that sucks. Folding sucks, but might be the "safer" play, does this make any sense? People calling either have a draw or have me beat, rarely will I get lucky enough to have both opponents have TT or something like KQ, right? I just can't see myself being good if we make it to showdown with these bets...

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Did I miss something? Aren't there two players behind us? You think they'll lay down with any signifcant draw or holding if we call? Their pot odds are redic. Fold or go all in, leaning towards the latter.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Tough hand, If I were in it, I'd probably raise all in or fold. I think calling is the worst option you have here. But given then PF action, if I were the one leading into the PF raiser here, my range to donk into you on the flop isn't that great...K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a set. All of which are strong hands with that flop, and while you are ahead in several of the above mentioned situations (hands) I hate having two players yet to act behind me. If you raise all in, you're going to get called by a hand like straight and flush draws and top pair/flush draw and all sets.....so....I voted fold, with no read, I assume my opponents have half a clue and want me to raise the pot when I am the PF raiser and they lead into me and three others....the guy who leads at this on the flop either has a very strong hand, or he's suicidal with his chips making that kind of a move. Fold or raise all in, I like folding here.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
who said fold? lol!

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding: When you raise with AKo, your definitely not wanting 4 callers, so when 4 people call, you should be like "oh sht!" in your head. Now you flop you pair. Hands that beat us: AA, KK, 33, 66. Now two people IN FRONT OF YOU show strength, you still have TWO TO ACT, and you're best hope for a better-than-pair hand is a 5% runner runner.

Ask yourself this question, if three people called 200 in this situation, what would you call with in a later position?

Pushing: In the long run, I got to imagine that pushing is +EV, in the game theoretic sense, especially if you stay at the table or play with these people again. And you got to be favorite a legititmate portion of the time, even with two in front and two to act.

But come on, if this were the only poker sitiuation you were to ever encounter (ie it happened every hand), would you seriously call here? You'd push, or maybe fold and quit poker.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Personally, I don't like risking the majority of my stack in positions where I am (at best) marginally ahead. TPTK is weeeaaak against this many players and even if it is the best hand BB is likely holding the same hand or better (smells like bottom two).

Against three “in position” I'm more a fan of raising but IMO there are too many players and possibilities to make a big raise – maybe with more info. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a major part of the poker profitability equation to “minimize” losses?

The way this hand played out so far and with two to act I'm folding or raising and with what I know about the players, the table in general and hero’s image my first instinct was to fold; wait for a better spot.

-M

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't like risking the majority of my stack in positions where I am (at best) marginally ahead. TPTK is weeeaaak against this many players and even if it is the best hand BB is likely holding the same hand or better (smells like bottom two).

Against three “in position” I'm more a fan of raising but IMO there are too many players and possibilities to make a big raise – maybe with more info. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a major part of the poker profitability equation to “minimize” losses?

The way this hand played out so far and with two to act I'm folding or raising and with what I know about the players, the table in general and hero’s image my first instinct was to fold; wait for a better spot.

-M

[/ QUOTE ]

TPTK is pretty decent on this board, because two pair is very unlikely and there is only one real power draw (45[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). What beats hero here? 33, 66. That's 6 hand combinations. There's already 1k in the pot. I'm pretty happy pushing here given that BB appears to be a donk.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Ok, you're right, my laughing attack at folding wasn't justified, I just consider folding to be least optimal, even though situationally it may have (*ahem*) be correct.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding: When you raise with AKo, your definitely not wanting 4 callers, so when 4 people call, you should be like "oh sht!" in your head. Now you flop you pair. Hands that beat us: AA, KK, 33, 66. Now two people IN FRONT OF YOU show strength, you still have TWO TO ACT, and you're best hope for a better-than-pair hand is a 5% runner runner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree, getting 5way action with AK is unexpected. you're also losing k6,k3,63 if you want to add those in there. but...

There are ~25BBs in the pot pf, you "hit your hand," it's not exactly time to look at folding. I'd protect what likely good be good, "gambling" that no one behind me flopped a set.

AA or KK is unlikely simply because they were given a chance to narrow hands pf and just called, which is possible, but unlikely.

I wouldn't be worried about initial bet or cold caller too much; one, the cold caller is redic short stacked, so he likely is a donk w/ 2cards, and if he happens to have better 2 cards, he gets paid off. the initial lead bet is very weak, and looking for a bet/3bet in a 5way pot is probably not going to happen, more likely he'll get calls... I think a set or weird two pair (esp. 63 from the blinds) would lead out bigger.

but maybe not, I think you're ahead of the initial action, so scoot it in, good money out there, if you're unlucky to run into a set, well, thats why there's a rebuy button.

[ QUOTE ]
Ask yourself this question, if three people called 200 in this situation, what would you call with in a later position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Turns it into a limit hand, they'd be correct in peeling tons of hands. Really, calling is similar to pushing, just not as good; you still go broke vs better hands, unless you "get away" if a draw hits, and give those draws / worse hands (whichmay dance on the flop) a chance to get away.

[ QUOTE ]

Pushing: In the long run, I got to imagine that pushing is +EV, in the game theoretic sense, especially if you stay at the table or play with these people again. And you got to be favorite a legititmate portion of the time, even with two in front and two to act.

But come on, if this were the only poker sitiuation you were to ever encounter (ie it happened every hand), would you seriously call here? You'd push, or maybe fold and quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... I never said I would call. I dont know why you think that. I agree with flawless saying a kamikazee push.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Nobody is talking about the two players left to act. I think I was one of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is talking about the two players left to act. I think I was one of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

What's to talk about? Like I said, the only real concern here is 33 or 66, that's a total of 6 hand combinations ouf of the hundreds you guys would call with.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
if I raise, I can only see myself getting action from a better hand, or maybe a sick draw

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with this? If someone has a better hand, you're sunk no matter what. Are you going to call, and then fold later on? That doesn't make sense, does it? So if you assume your sunk if someone already had you beat, then raising is better than calling because you're protecting your hand. Your hand isn't good enough to be worried about getting action. Your plenty happy to take down the pot right now.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

oh mp3 and button are still out there
duh
raise or fold
calling gets you squeezed

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

lol this is about the toughest AK hand ever

call me weak but i'm laying this down.

Results
 

I.........call. next guy folds, next guy makes it $1000, Both BB and UTG move in.

BB had AK, UTG had some crap, next guy had 666.

I don't know.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

Tough tough spot. I would just call and evaluate. What are you gonna achieve with a push?

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

i was playing at the time i voted and thus didnt discuss my reasonings for clicking fold.

the guy is leading out into four guys including the pfr and was called already. the better, if he doesnt have you dead to his set most likely has a big draw here, and you still have two people behind you.

if this was 6 max and you were closing the action, id say its a push. but a full game with that action already and two left behind you, a push here is sketchy at best.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

fsu is much more concise than i am. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I.........call. next guy folds, next guy makes it $1000, Both BB and UTG move in.

BB had AK, UTG had some crap, next guy had 666.

I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you layed this down, I'd be fairly happy seeing these holecards at the end of the hand. Could you have saved $200? I don't think so, you were tied or beating the hands in front of you, apparently the call was good. Would be interesting to note what would have happened on the turn if the two behind you would have folded.

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

I know that doing things for information is usually a bad idea since the information you get might be unreliable... but I think in a 5-way raised pot like this calling for information will work. Or something like that. I dunno, I don't like folding or raising... and I think your hand might be good enough over the long run.

Set sail for calling station...

-tpir

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I voted fold because I don't know how to play full ring and wanted to see results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ako 5way...A poll...
 

i think folding is the best option here. with 2 players behind you to act, raising all-in would be the worst move you could make. it looks like either BB or UTG has a big hand and only better hands will call an all-in. at best, ull take UTG's money and most other times, ull lose your stack. calling would be pretty bad since you'll be lost on the turn. i know it's a weak play to make, but i think this is a fold.

Re: Results
 

Ruh roh, Hero has the red "saw showdown" on his name. Hopefully just a converter error!