WSOP has become a joke.
 

After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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Espn loves to show alot of that, and don't show the skillful chip accumulating hands that took skill to win. I too am shocked at some of the play I have been watching. I feel like I should go there and take a shot.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

[ QUOTE ]
After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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To even make this statement shows, I think, a very profound misunderstanding of the incredible effect of luck on short term results.

--Zetack

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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Espn loves to show alot of that, and don't show the skillful chip accumulating hands that took skill to win. I too am shocked at some of the play I have been watching. I feel like I should go there and take a shot.

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This is true, the reason for this is that most of the skillful play comes from the outer tables without the card readers. Not seeing the cards, a series of bets, and then a fold does not make great TV. In reality they have to make their footage from the featured table and showndown hands on the outertables. Most skilled plays never ever see a showdown.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

There is a difference with luck and calling a reraise with A10o. Or taking god knows how long to fold KJs for all your chips. Or in a smaller event that that asian guy won. To call off your stack with AJo.

Sure when you call with AK and the person has KK and you spike and Ace that is luck. But if you call with 64o and beat AA thats not only luck but unskillful play.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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There is a difference with luck and calling a reraise with A10o. Or taking god knows how long to fold KJs for all your chips. Or in a smaller event that that asian guy won. To call off your stack with AJo.

Sure when you call with AK and the person has KK and you spike and Ace that is luck. But if you call with 64o and beat AA thats not only luck but unskillful play.

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I get annoyed reading all the books and forums telling you only to play good starting hands, then you turn on the TV and see people calilng raises and bluffing w/ 68o.. Im not particularly talking about the Dannenman hand Im just saying in general.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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There is a difference with luck and calling a reraise with A10o. Or taking god knows how long to fold KJs for all your chips. Or in a smaller event that that asian guy won. To call off your stack with AJo.

Sure when you call with AK and the person has KK and you spike and Ace that is luck. But if you call with 64o and beat AA thats not only luck but unskillful play.

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I get annoyed reading all the books and forums telling you only to play good starting hands, then you turn on the TV and see people calilng raises and bluffing w/ 68o.. Im not particularly talking about the Dannenman hand Im just saying in general.

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There is a place in tournaments for calling with 86s in position. This is something books don't teach you. But having said that. YOU NEVER CALL OFF ALL YOUR CHIPS WITH KJs or AJo. I mean the fact that all these players were in deep though about this was ridiculous. My god. I am definitely playing next year after seeing this.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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There is a difference with luck and calling a reraise with A10o. Or taking god knows how long to fold KJs for all your chips. Or in a smaller event that that asian guy won. To call off your stack with AJo.

Sure when you call with AK and the person has KK and you spike and Ace that is luck. But if you call with 64o and beat AA thats not only luck but unskillful play.

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I get annoyed reading all the books and forums telling you only to play good starting hands, then you turn on the TV and see people calilng raises and bluffing w/ 68o.. Im not particularly talking about the Dannenman hand Im just saying in general.

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There is a place in tournaments for calling with 86s in position. This is something books don't teach you. But having said that. YOU NEVER CALL OFF ALL YOUR CHIPS WITH KJs or AJo. I mean the fact that all these players were in deep though about this was ridiculous. My god. I am definitely playing next year after seeing this.

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No i know there is a place for that. I wasn't talking about the Dannenman hand I just happened to use the same hand. I know what you mean. When Tiffany was in deep thought I was thinking "she has got to be kidding me!" At best she had to KNOW she was a 45/55 dog! At best!! When I was on Cardplayer.com back in July I was thinking, "Wow this lady must be an incredible player"...

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.


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I believe it was Barry Greenstein who wrote that, if you get all of your money in 3 times as a 4:1 favorite, you're only even money to still be in the tournament after that series.

Don't judge tournaments by what you see on TV. Nor should you overemphasize the amount of skill involved, or skill's ability to overcome luck.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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No i know there is a place for that. I wasn't talking about the Dannenman hand I just happened to use the same hand. I know what you mean. When Tiffany was in deep thought I was thinking "she has got to be kidding me!" At best she had to KNOW she was a 45/55 dog! At best!! When I was on Cardplayer.com back in July I was thinking, "Wow this lady must be an incredible player"...

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Williamson's plays were a joke. The only explanation is that with such a huge number of donks in the tourney just based on sheer statistical probability one would get through to this point. It is frustrating though to see such an obviously unskilled player get to where most of us only dream to get.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.


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I believe it was Barry Greenstein who wrote that, if you get all of your money in 3 times as a 4:1 favorite, you're only even money to still be in the tournament after that series.

Don't judge tournaments by what you see on TV. Nor should you overemphasize the amount of skill involved, or skill's ability to overcome luck.

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You are not getting what I am saying. Of course over an extended period of time skill wins out. The wsop is just one tournament. Just one. Hence luck is about 90% of it now. Obviously if you play that lady over and over in the long run you will crush her. I am just saying that this ONE tournament has become a joke. And idiots like that big oaf will think they are good at poker because they got far in one single tournament.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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You are not getting what I am saying. Of course over an extended period of time skill wins out. The wsop is just one tournament. Just one. Hence luck is about 90% of it now. Obviously if you play that lady over and over in the long run you will crush her. I am just saying that this ONE tournament has become a joke. <font color="red">And idiots like that big oaf will think they are good at poker because they got far in one single tournament.</font>

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I think everyone overrated the amount of skill involved in the old WSOP main events. One could argue that it takes more skill now than it used to, because of the larger fields, aggressive players and sheer unpredictibility of play.
The counter-argument would be that there is less play available now. You have to reduce your moves and hands more to try to get larger edges before gambling.

Dan H and Doyle and others may be the only ones who can comment on this accurately, since they (and others like them) have played in both environments.

<font color="red"> As for your sentiment in the last sentence, I completely agree that people take their results way too seriously.</font>

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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And idiots like that big oaf will think they are good at poker because they got far in one single tournament.

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This is the fundamental idea behind poker's popularity. Anyone really can win - it is why the fish keep coming back.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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No i know there is a place for that. I wasn't talking about the Dannenman hand I just happened to use the same hand. I know what you mean. When Tiffany was in deep thought I was thinking "she has got to be kidding me!" At best she had to KNOW she was a 45/55 dog! At best!! When I was on Cardplayer.com back in July I was thinking, "Wow this lady must be an incredible player"...

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Williamson's plays were a joke. The only explanation is that with such a huge number of donks in the tourney just based on sheer statistical probability one would get through to this point. It is frustrating though to see such an obviously unskilled player get to where most of us only dream to get.

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Hate to keep bashing her but I was reading back in the day that Chris Ferguson was Heads UP ( i know she wasn't heads up but for all intents and purposes she was heads up in the hand ) with TJ Cloutier he kept going all in pretty much every hand to take away TJ Cloutiers skill advantage, thinking on the terms of "Any person can win a single hand so I might as well keep going all in instead of getting outplayed". I was thinking maybe she was doing that, but I honestly don't think she was smart enough to think that way&gt; I honestly think her thinking was that she thought she had the best hand.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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You are right. This is my strong viewpoint too based on the 20 hands I saw on TV over a period of time in which thousands of hands were dealt. I found it especially easy to judge when I didn't know what the blinds or stack sizes were as well.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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Williamson's plays were a joke. The only explanation is that with such a huge number of donks in the tourney just based on sheer statistical probability one would get through to this point. It is frustrating though to see such an obviously unskilled player get to where most of us only dream to get.

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Yeah it's not like I see tons of bad players make it far in every tournament I play in every single day.

Man, you need to get used to it, deep stacks and long rounds don't completely eliminate the luck factor. The deep stacked tournaments on Stars actually have a structure very similar to the World Series in terms of hands dealt per hour and starting stack size, and beleive it or not, some really bad players do well in those almost every time!

Hey!
 

Don't go hogging my commissions!

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

[ QUOTE ]
After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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Is this a "live poker is rigged" thread?
Sweet!

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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Williamson's plays were a joke. The only explanation is that with such a huge number of donks in the tourney just based on sheer statistical probability one would get through to this point. It is frustrating though to see such an obviously unskilled player get to where most of us only dream to get.

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At first I thought she was trying to put her opponent (or maybe the whole table) on tilt with the KJs hand that she took forever to make a decision on. I can't believe any poker player would really put that much thought into that hand.

I really wonder after seeing her call an all-in for all her chips with the A7o, though.

That's not the same as Ferguson moving in on Cloutier to take control of the hand and force a decision.

It's just dumb.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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I was reading back in the day that Chris Ferguson was Heads UP ( i know she wasn't heads up but for all intents and purposes she was heads up in the hand ) with TJ Cloutier he kept going all in pretty much every hand to take away TJ Cloutiers skill advantage, thinking on the terms of "Any person can win a single hand so I might as well keep going all in instead of getting outplayed". I was thinking maybe she was doing that, but I honestly don't think she was smart enough to think that way&gt; I honestly think her thinking was that she thought she had the best hand.

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The problem with your theory is she was CALLING all-ins with garbage hands, NOT PUTTING her opponents all-in. She wasn't being loose and aggressive in moving in to take control of the hand, gain fold equity, etc.

She was passively calling other people's all-in raises with junk.

There's no advantage in doing that.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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Williamson's plays were a joke. The only explanation is that with such a huge number of donks in the tourney just based on sheer statistical probability one would get through to this point. It is frustrating though to see such an obviously unskilled player get to where most of us only dream to get.

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At first I thought she was trying to put her opponent (or maybe the whole table) on tilt with the KJs hand that she took forever to make a decision on. I can't believe any poker player would really put that much thought into that hand.

I really wonder after seeing her call an all-in for all her chips with the A7o, though.

That's not the same as Ferguson moving in on Cloutier to take control of the hand and force a decision.

It's just dumb.

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I don't know, the only person who so far has actually caused me to break things while watching was Williamson, and it simply seems to me that she had a hard time getting away from any Ace or two broadway cards.

But yeah, I wonder what Sheik must have thought she had - if he found out KJh he would have broken something.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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YOU NEVER CALL OFF ALL YOUR CHIPS WITH KJs or AJo.

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Sometimes you do, not in either of those spots, though.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

One play that was equally horrible that nobody seems to be talking about is the guy who called a pre-flop raise with AX, checked when an A hit on the flop and then folded to the bet by the guy holding 77. His first mistake was calling the raise pre-flop if he had no intention of playing the hand after the flop, his second mistake was checking the flop after the A hit, and his third mistake was not re-raising what could very well be a semi-bluff from the guy holding 7-7.



What the hell was that?

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

What's most depressing to me is how big of douchebags these guys all are. Friedman, Stillman, Paskin, all huge tools. I literally laughed my ass off when Friedman said "You wish you had my talent at my age." Apparently, this guy is awesome yet doesn't even know a king high flush running into an ace high flush is just an unfortunate part of the game. I have a feeling we won't see much more of this clown.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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One play that was equally horrible that nobody seems to be talking about is the guy who called a pre-flop raise with AX, checked when an A hit on the flop and then folded to the bet by the guy holding 77. His first mistake was calling the raise pre-flop if he had no intention of playing the hand after the flop, his second mistake was checking the flop after the A hit, and his third mistake was not re-raising what could very well be a semi-bluff from the guy holding 7-7.



What the hell was that?

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I would be willing to bet the guy with the pair of aces stays in the hand if Black keeps his mouth shut and just folds quickly. As for Black, as first I thought the guy was pretty cool, but after the TT hand and him crying over ppl not willing to ruin their tournament b/c some guy couldn't show up on time, I realized he was a douchebag like the rest of 'em.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

I hope the editors at ESPN and WPT continue to select these dramatic luckbox hands for airing. It's good for business.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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I literally laughed my ass off when Friedman said "You wish you had my talent at my age."

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it was better than that, he said "you wish you had half the talent i have when you were my age"
the kid was apparently looking for a pat on the back from somebody it seems from his comments, 3 perfect days, half the talent, how many 23 year olds etc (i understand the shows are edited and can make things seem different from what they are).

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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One play that was equally horrible that nobody seems to be talking about is the guy who called a pre-flop raise with AX, checked when an A hit on the flop and then folded to the bet by the guy holding 77. His first mistake was calling the raise pre-flop if he had no intention of playing the hand after the flop, his second mistake was checking the flop after the A hit, and his third mistake was not re-raising what could very well be a semi-bluff from the guy holding 7-7.



What the hell was that?

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I think it was all that talking the one guy with TT was doing as well. Bad poker eitquette isn't it? To discuss a hand like that when someone else is still yet to act?

I thought that hand was a litte testament to how good Matusow is though. Once the hand ended, Matusow said "Worst hand goes into the muck. You're not gonna pull that crap with me when I'm in the hand, buddy." Or something to that effect. He had the guy pegged, but the others were clueless.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

My table was tough as hell at the WSOP. Every time I put chips in the pot I got the stare down and a come over. Still, watching Hellmuth's table I was envious that I didn't get his cards against those players. That old man who put out a 10K turn raise when Hellmuth praised himself for an easy AKo laydown made me sick. And what about that dude that called him down to hit with KJ on the river?

Indy

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

Friedman was a really nice guy. Paskin (the brit guy w/ the smelly Beckham gear) was the friendliest guy to me at the WSOP. He appears to be an ass at the tables, but he's really a great guy behind it all. I wish he'd won it all.

Indy

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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What's most depressing to me is how big of douchebags these guys all are. Friedman, Stillman, Paskin, all huge tools. I literally laughed my ass off when Friedman said "You wish you had my talent at my age." Apparently, this guy is awesome yet doesn't even know a king high flush running into an ace high flush is just an unfortunate part of the game. I have a feeling we won't see much more of this clown.

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Which one was Paskin again?

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

Paskin was the british guy who yelled a lot and angered his table with rude behavior. I spent some time with him after day 1 and I really liked the guy. He explained that he was purposely trying to annoy people to gain action on his good hands.

Indy

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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Which one was Paskin again?

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British dude, living in Sweden, England Football jersey, tape on his mouth, screaming, cursing, 20 minute penalty, invoked Lenny Bruce.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

Another quality post usurping the goodness monopoly of sthief09. You go girl.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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After watching yesterdays episode and some of the smaller events won by fish, to me the wsop has become a joke. This is no longer a tournament about skill but about who can make the worst call and be the luckiest.

Some of calls they have been showing are right down sickening. The fact that these players have gone this far in a tournament just goes to show that it no longer is about skill its all about luck. Very depressing.

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Phil Ivey winning the blinds and antes is boring.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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I think it was all that talking the one guy with TT was doing as well. Bad poker eitquette isn't it? To discuss a hand like that when someone else is still yet to act?

I thought that hand was a litte testament to how good Matusow is though. Once the hand ended, Matusow said "Worst hand goes into the muck. You're not gonna pull that crap with me when I'm in the hand, buddy." Or something to that effect. He had the guy pegged, but the others were clueless.

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I don't know how I feel about Black talking during the hand. I'm not sure it's bad etiquette when (1) he was still in the hand himself and (2) he didn't give any information out about his hand. If he had said something like "I'm folding a big pocket pair," then yes it would be bad. If he wasn't in the hand, and was talking about what he had folded (for example), it would certainly be bad.

But I think it's OK to probe one of your opponents for a reaction, without giving out information about your hand, if you're still in the hand.

The purpose of the rule is to keep people who are not or will not be involved in a hand from influencing the outcome and I'm not sure I understand how Black's comments that he was "laying down the best hand" would infuence what's his name's decision to play top pair.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

John Juanda, who finished around 50th, said on the cardplayer.com webcast of the final table that even late in the tournament there were players in the big blind folding their hands when they could have checked and seen the flop for free.
ESPN shows dramatic hands, which usually involve, a) a lot of money, b) a great decision, c) a stupid decision, d) "colorful" reactions during or after the hand, or e) some combination of a through d.
For whatever reason, this year has been remarkable for stupid decisions. (Just wait for the final table telecast.) I wonder if this is because as the stakes grow, people start feeling the heat.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

Ditto. What flop was that guy looking for? If that wasn't it, why was he in the hand in the first place?

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

I wonder what will happen when everyone realizes the obvious.NL hold em is the most luck based form of poker,period.
If you want a true test of skill,you must bring other games into the mix.

Re: WSOP has become a joke.
 

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There is a place in tournaments for calling with 86s in position. This is something books don't teach you.

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Really? I'm sure I have books that teach me that. Written by some guy who played in a few tournaments and might have had some success.