JJ weak line - help needed
 

Villain is new-ish to table so no reads yet (my reads are worth about zero just now anyway) and nothing stats wise that matters but about 25/5 for 20 hands.

How do you play this type of hand in general? I think my line screamed weak. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($84.50)
Hero ($139.63)
SB ($60.90)
BB ($102.80)
UTG ($41.70)
UTG+1 ($143.05)
UTG+2 ($105)
MP1 ($161.70)
MP2 ($18.50)
MP3 ($93.23)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, Hero calls $4, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($25.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $20</font>, Hero calls $20.

River: ($65.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ?

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

You gotta raise that flop. Being a pansy is a disgrace to your fine avatar! If you get resistance you can lay it down. The only advantage you got by becoming a calling station is that villain probably now thinks his AK, AQ or AJ is good here; so against a thinking villain a river raise (maybe even the dreaded min raise [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]) might induce anything but AA, an 8 or 4 to fold.

Raise that flop or fold. Don't call, especially since you have position. Use your position to make villain make the tough decisions that this hand presents.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

I felt crap folding this river, then i opened up this thread and read my own post and thought - FOLD idiot. Why do I find it so uncomfortable to let go of a good 'starting' hand when its clear I'm beat? And why do I then whine about here? Worse yet why are thee times when I insist on putting the money in on this kind of garbage?

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

That's part of learning the game. You could have raised the flop to $15 to take control of the hand and still saved $9 (compared to how you played it) if you had to fold to villain's reraise. In this situation, I will call a river bet if I have KK or AA. JJ is not an optimal hand to call this against an unknown villain.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

I think this is where my game falls down. I think myself weak. I see a pair, I've been bet into, I decide I might be beating a Cbet and nothing else so I either fold or call. Then I cry about it. I cry a lot just now.

So anyway, sobbing aside, whats your move on the turn when he calls your raise?

I will be posting more hands I wimped out on so feel free to point out what a pansy assed pussy I am. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

Let your avatar play a few hands. he doesn't look like a pansy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


If he calls my raise, I make a 1/2 pot turn bet (fold to a turn check raise) and check down the river. If villain leads out strong then I lay it down because I smell AA or KK trying to salvage the pot and it looks like you have a villain who won't lay an overpair down (make a note and stack him later if this happens).

Do you have pokertracker? I found reviewing how much $$ I made from each starting hand helped me identify leaks in my game.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

I have pokertracker, just dont now how to identify a leak. I started playing NL because I did little more than break even at limit over my first 50k hands. I played 5k hands of 50NL just for a break from limit and won more in those hands than I had in my last 25k hands at limit. I switched, played like a rock tight set mining nit and havent looked back. Outside of the blinds I play pairs and AK-AJ, I limp suited Axs in MP, in the CO and button I raise with an Ace or JTo+ first in otherwise I limp along in back. I only call raises with pairs (smaller ones 5-10 rule dependant) and AKs, AQs.

I have no idea why I win but I currently clear about 5ptBB/100 at 100NL playing 4-8 tables full ring. I was clearing 8ptbb/100 at 50NL on average. I have over 250k hands of this garbage.

Mostly I fold a lot.

I'm here posting hands and reading to try and develop a more complete understanding of poker. I don't want to be a multi tabling bottom feeder for ever. I read lots (you name the book I've scribbled notes in it) but seem to misapply most of it or just fail to understand it.
I like the fact I can count on winning playing the way I do, loosening up scares me, short handed scares me, big stacks scare me, maniacs scare me, LAGS scare me, being called by another rock makes me wet myself.

I suck. I am a strategy player rather than a thinking player. I do what works and fear changing and losing my comfort zone.

Strangely though, when I play 6 max i turn from a 12/4/2 rock into 30/20/5 raising machine. I don't have any reason for playing so differently other than it seems to make sense to me.

...but really I just suck at poker. It just pays so damn well.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

I play 6-max and find that it has loosened me up and helped me develop my game. Drop down and play some 6-max NL $25 and play a LAG style. Remember that a good LAG is a nut pre-flop who outplays his opponents post-flop.

I would say stop being afraid to lose. Hopefully you are not gambling with your rent money. Read posts here by TWP, xorbie, yvesaint, ghazban and Bobbofitos and you will be getting top-notch advice you will not see in a book.

With the number of hands that you have played finding leaks should not be too difficult (I might start a thread on this). All your pocket pairs and A-Broadway starting hands should be profitable. If not, review these hands.

Look at hands that you have lost the most money with and try to see where you went wrong. My guess is you called down with 2nd best.

Anyway, hopefully someone smarter than me will offer some more insights.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

hmm, insightful thread
im new here, trying to improve my game a bit,
if it had been me playing, i would have raised his post flop bet to about 10, see what he does. this would at least put you in control of the hand, if he calls you know he at least has a hand of some sort.
then see what action he takes on the turn, if he check, make a small raise, 6-8, see what he does, if he calls, start being worried then possibley a check down on the river?

but by just calling ur swayin to him that u have a hand but are unsure of it, which to me would say ur either slow playing the nuts, or u have a hand which hasnt hit yet.
in this instance id play as he did and scare you out of the pot which is what happened.

basically in my opinion i think in a situation like this you need to bet to a certain extent to put you on an even level??

may be wrong but thats what i think

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

Not sure what happened...was it checked to you on the river?

If it was, i'd check behind. You don't have enough hands to rely on the stats, but I'd think that you are almost certainly behind here, but sometimes you are beating A high that thinks it's good because of the double paired board. I'd raise the flop...that lets him know you have at least TP and maybe something better.......also, raising the flop on this board gives you the PERFECT opportunity to bluff when the board double pairs on the turn. He's gotta fold just about anything here. As played, fold to a river bet unless it's super tiny in relation to the size of the pot...you are crushed by QQ-AA IMO.

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

How about taking control of the hand PF? He is the CO and is the first to open. He could have a wide range of hands in this situation. Re-raise PF. Isn't there about a 70% (e.g., I think) chance that an over card will come on the flop if your holding JJ? Wouldn't a re-raise PF make your hand appear stronger and also provide more scare cards that your opponent has to worry about. If he isn't worried then it is easier to get away from. Please critique. Thanks

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about taking control of the hand PF? He is the CO and is the first to open. He could have a wide range of hands in this situation. Re-raise PF. Isn't there about a 70% (e.g., I think) chance that an over card will come on the flop if your holding JJ? Wouldn't a re-raise PF make your hand appear stronger and also provide more scare cards that your opponent has to worry about. If he isn't worried then it is easier to get away from. Please critique. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Good catch. To OP, you also should have raised pre-flop, you pansy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

OK - I see where raising preflop comes from but...

This is really a win it right there move isn't it? If he calls, and if any unknown calls a preflop re-raise he has diagrammed AA, KK, QQ, AK hasn't he? So then what? Any over card on the flop doesnt really give us leverage it scares the hell out of us and is 'likely' to make him a monster holding. Now I have a pair of Jacks in a big head up pot that I'm likely behind in. We may be diagramming the same hand but as the bettor aren't we by default less likely to have it?

Help

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

Someone else said it best: don't be afraid to lose.

In any case, you never got a feel for the flavor of COs hand. On the button, you should raise preflop here about 80% of the time. At least you'll have an idea of your opponents holding. But it's OK to call behind once in a while to mix it up.

Say you do call behind preflop, you MUST raise the flop to see where you are. If he comes over, then you're happy with your fold. He had a better hyand or has bigger balls. In the first case, great fold. In the second case, you're in great position to stack him later...

Re: JJ weak line - help needed
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is really a win it right there move isn't it? If he calls, and if any unknown calls a preflop re-raise he has diagrammed AA, KK, QQ, AK hasn't he?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. Cutoff was first in. His raising range should be broad. He may be stealing the blinds (especially if he knows the button is weak-tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

By raising you let him know you have something. Of course if he fires back all-in then you fold(you still lose less in this situation than the way you played it). If not, you bet any flop.

Another thing you need to think about is using your position. You have a good hand to play from the button and you got a flop that you can bet/raise into.

Final thought. So what if you take it down preflop? Isn't winning the blinds plus his $4 better than losing $30 or more?