Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

Should it be illegal to abuse animals (i.e. torture them) if you own them?

Why or why not?

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

No, it should be completely legal.

Having it illegal won't change anything; people can always torture animals if they want to. Giving animals rights, however, could bring up wierd legal issues that could make eating them and wearing them difficult.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

Yes; it is already.

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson...ty/cruelty.htm
http://www.animal-law.org/statutes/

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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Should it be illegal to abuse animals (i.e. torture them) if you own them?

Why or why not?

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Yes. Because it is contrary to my moral code.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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No, it should be completely legal.

Having it illegal won't change anything; people can always torture animals if they want to. Giving animals rights, however, could bring up wierd legal issues that could make eating them and wearing them difficult.

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The same logic could be applied to murder. People could still do it and wierd legal issues ccouild and have arisen. But maybe you think muder should be legal too because it satisfies your premises.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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The same logic could be applied to murder. People could still do it and wierd legal issues ccouild and have arisen. But maybe you think muder should be legal too because it satisfies your premises.

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This is true, because I pumped out a quick, stupid answer.

I should have mentioned that I believe human beings should have rights that animals quite simply don't have. Society should put humans first because we're the ones who contribute to it. Animals, by contrast, are food, clothing and entertainment to us. I really don't see any reason to protect their rights.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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I really don't see any reason to protect their rights.

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So the fact that it has been shown that animals experience pain , fear and suffering is no reason to protect their rights? Nice.

I'm not advocating a bill of rights for animals or that we shouldn't continue to use them in the manner that we do, but some basic laws to prevent people needlessly torturing animals seem entirely reasonable to me.

And not at odds with your reactionary tough guy "humans come first, down with the veggies" stance at all.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

"Animals, by contrast, are food, clothing and entertainment to us. I really don't see any reason to protect their rights."

So in your view, animals have no intrinsic value, and you would have no problem if I raised kittens or puppies for the sole purpose of poking their eyes out and slowly torturing them to death?

While I think that is a defensible position (but certainly not one that I hold), very little separates any person who advocates in favor of it from a serial killer.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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The same logic could be applied to murder. People could still do it and wierd legal issues ccouild and have arisen. But maybe you think muder should be legal too because it satisfies your premises.

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This is true, because I pumped out a quick, stupid answer.

I should have mentioned that I believe human beings should have rights that animals quite simply don't have. Society should put humans first because we're the ones who contribute to it. Animals, by contrast, are food, clothing and entertainment to us. I really don't see any reason to protect their rights.

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It all comes down to one's personal feeling of the society one wants to be part of. I would not like to live in a society where, for example, where it was ok to to nail a cat to a fence and leave it to die (ok maybe cats but definitly not dogs!). And so one goes down the line until some cruelty is tolerable, eg in vermin control. Somewhere you make a choice as to what is acceptable to you. No absolute measure, just what you feel is OK. There are no absolute rigts, only what a society choses to bestow.

So the reason to give them rights is so you feel comfortable living in your particular society.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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So in your view, animals have no intrinsic value, and you would have no problem if I raised kittens or puppies for the sole purpose of poking their eyes out and slowly torturing them to death?

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That's a pretty exceptionally rare extreme, and anyone sadistic enough to want to engage in such a barbaric activity should probably be getting some serious therapy. I pity such a person.

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While I think that is a defensible position (but certainly not one that I hold), very little separates any person who advocates in favor of it from a serial killer.

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The difference is a few rungs on the evolutionary ladder, that's about it.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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It all comes down to one's personal feeling of the society one wants to be part of. I would not like to live in a society where, for example, where it was ok to to nail a cat to a fence and leave it to die (ok maybe cats but definitly not dogs!). And so one goes down the line until some cruelty is tolerable, eg in vermin control. Somewhere you make a choice as to what is acceptable to you. No absolute measure, just what you feel is OK. There are no absolute rigts, only what a society choses to bestow.

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Well said, I'm glad you pointed this out so I don't have to ^_^ A line must be drawn somewhere; we may be averse to harming cute puppies and kitties, but what about mice? Skunks? Cockroaches? Amoebae? On the other extreme, we know from a look at history that human beings are capable of including even other people in that no-rights line. Consider Nazi Germany, where the citizens openly supported genocide.

I too would not want to live in a society where people nail dogs to the fence...mostly because that's indicative of a very sick race of PEOPLE there. I hate cats too, but I could never derive pleasure from torturing them. If I did, I imagine I'd also have a slew of other problems that would make me a danger to society and other people. (Perhaps what I'm saying is, regulating kitty torture isn't treating the disease, it's treating the symptoms)

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So the reason to give them rights is so you feel comfortable living in your particular society.

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Well, if the problem actually is there, then yes, I'd say that's a pretty good reason.

Excellent post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

I don't think I can formulate a consistent argument for this.

On one hand I do appreciate that the animals suffer and don't want them to needlessly do so, on the other hand, I enjoy eating their corpses...so....

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

. . . you are selfish.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

"That's a pretty exceptionally rare extreme, and anyone sadistic enough to want to engage in such a barbaric activity should probably be getting some serious therapy. I pity such a person."

I'm curious, do you only pity the person, or do you have any concerns about the animal?

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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Well said, I'm glad you pointed this out so I don't have to ^_^ A line must be drawn somewhere; we may be averse to harming cute puppies and kitties, but what about mice? Skunks? Cockroaches? Amoebae?

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I think a rational criteria would be how sentient a certain animal is. The more evolved an animal, the higher intelligence they have, the more sentient they are. Dolphins, apes, and other higher-order mammals would be more protected under law than flies, earthworms, and amoebas.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

If it serves no use and is for your own personal entertainment, torturing animals can be a sign of further things down the road.

So, yeah, if someone ties up a squirrel and pours some acid on it, I definitely think there should be a decent punishment (juvenile detention/community service) for it, depending on the animal and level of cruelty.

There's definitely a difference between torture and actual use of an animal.

We treat the symptoms of society all the time. Some behavior is simply unhealthy. Torture of animals is one of them.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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We treat the symptoms of society all the time. Some behavior is simply unhealthy. Torture of animals is one of them.

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I disagree with this reasoning (shared by hmkpoker) for having animal cruelty being a crime. Yes, we treat people that are mentally ill. But, not by fining them and/or having them go to jail. We send them to a psychiatric hospital.

Another symptom of mental illness would be someone that abuses themselves. But, we don't fine them or throw them in jail for doing that.

Torturing animals is a crime, not because it is a symptom that the person is mentally ill, but because we empathize with the pain and suffering of other sentient animals. Nobody will pay a fine or go to jail for cutting the wings off of flies to see the fly squirm, but they will for cutting the legs off of a cat for the same reason.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

"There's definitely a difference between torture and actual use of an animal."

I'm not sure that this distinction would mean much to the calf who spent most of its short life stuffed in an undersized box until such time that its throat was slit so it could "used" to make veal.

In my mind, the fundamental question is whether animals have intrinsic worth or an independent right to be free from pain, or whether their entire value is dependent on how humans "use" them. If the answer is the latter, then what could be wrong with torturing animals for entertainment, other than the fact that the torture might make some people uncomfortable?

If the answer is the former, society has a lot of re-thinking to do.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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Well said, I'm glad you pointed this out so I don't have to ^_^ A line must be drawn somewhere; we may be averse to harming cute puppies and kitties, but what about mice? Skunks? Cockroaches? Amoebae?

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I think a rational criteria would be how sentient a certain animal is. The more evolved an animal, the higher intelligence they have, the more sentient they are. Dolphins, apes, and other higher-order mammals would be more protected under law than flies, earthworms, and amoebas.

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I agree, but the distinction is still arbitrary. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

The possibility of artificial intelligence would bring up a few interesting issues ^_^

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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I agree, but the distinction is still arbitrary. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

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What distinction is arbitrary? The distinction of which animals are more sentient? I don't think so. Regardless, the point is that some animals are able to feel more pain, and suffer more than others. We empathize with those animals, and make it illegal to unnecessarily cause them harm.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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I agree, but the distinction is still arbitrary. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

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What distinction is arbitrary? The distinction of which animals are more sentient? I don't think so. Regardless, the point is that some animals are able to feel more pain, and suffer more than others. We empathize with those animals, and make it illegal to unnecessarily cause them harm.

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I mean the distinction between which animals should get rights and which shouldn't, based on sentience level. I suppose different animals could get different levels of rights depending on their level of sentience.

I don't know. I don't feel very strongly on this issue one way or the other.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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I mean the distinction between which animals should get rights and which shouldn't, based on sentience level. I suppose different animals could get different levels of rights depending on their level of sentience.

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It's a judgement call, but that seems to be the most objective criteria. The others would be how familiar we are with the animal, how domesticated it is, how much it resembles us, and makes a good pet. So, a dolphin is really high on the sentient scale, but doesn't resemble us as much, so people aren't as empathetic toward them. I think that's bad criteria, though. We can pretty objectively measure sentience... by knowing the size of the brain, the communication skills within the group, and how they behave. I suppose we could measure them for higher brain-wave activity, too.

You don't care much either way, since you are on the top of the sentient scale. But, if we ever get visited by a higher-intelligent more-sentient extraterrestrial species... we would all care a lot more. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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You don't care much either way, since you are on the top of the sentient scale. But, if we ever get visited by a higher-intelligent more-sentient extraterrestrial species... we would all care a lot more.

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What matters then is, do they care? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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You don't care much either way, since you are on the top of the sentient scale. But, if we ever get visited by a higher-intelligent more-sentient extraterrestrial species... we would all care a lot more.

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What matters then is, do they care? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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As much as they can, I'm sure.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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Should it be illegal to abuse animals (i.e. torture them) if you own them?

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Yes, whether you own them or not.

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Why or why not?

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The short answer: Because they're living, breathing, feeling beings. That's why I'm a vegetarian.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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The same logic could be applied to murder. People could still do it and wierd legal issues ccouild and have arisen. But maybe you think muder should be legal too because it satisfies your premises.

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This is true, because I pumped out a quick, stupid answer.

I should have mentioned that I believe human beings should have rights that animals quite simply don't have. Society should put humans first because we're the ones who contribute to it. Animals, by contrast, are food, clothing and entertainment to us. I really don't see any reason to protect their rights.

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Vagrants, the homeless, mentally retarded- can i torture them as well?
Secondly cats dogs and other animals were domesticated because they did contribute to society- cats control rodent populations (and are still useful in this regard) dogs have been used for transportation, hunting, home protection, entertainment and food. Both species have gained from these relationships which is why they exist.

Re: Should abusing animals be illegal?
 

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Should it be illegal to abuse children (i.e. torture them) if you own them?

Why or why not?

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The answer to the question above should be the same answer.