Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

I was baffled when MM moved his chips forward all the way when contemplating a river call against the guy w/ the KKKJJ flopped boat. He simply doesn't let them touch the felt, and pulls them back.

No one says a thing.

Of course he ends up calling anyway, but I would have thought the dealer should have immediately called the floor to alert MM that his forward chip movement was a call. Of course the opponent is in a tough spot: he can't go apeshit when MM pulls the chips back for the first time or he'll tip his hand. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if MM had pulled his chips back and mucked...as the opponent I would definitely have called the floor over to protest.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

I thought you could bring chips forward and as long as they dont touch the felt it isn't considered an action.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was baffled when MM moved his chips forward all the way when contemplating a river call against the guy w/ the KKKJJ flopped boat. He simply doesn't let them touch the felt, and pulls them back.

No one says a thing.

Of course he ends up calling anyway, but I would have thought the dealer should have immediately called the floor to alert MM that his forward chip movement was a call. Of course the opponent is in a tough spot: he can't go apeshit when MM pulls the chips back for the first time or he'll tip his hand. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if MM had pulled his chips back and mucked...as the opponent I would definitely have called the floor over to protest.

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I was pretty baffled by this too. I think your analysis of why the guy didn't say anything is spot-on, .. at the same time I think Matusow knows he can get called out here. I think he probably was sure he was going to call and used the manuever as a why-not attempt to gather info. If he sees something he doesnt like he can at least try to muck the hand and get away with it. If he gets called out, he just has to make the call he was most likely planning on making to begin with.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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I thought you could bring chips forward and as long as they dont touch the felt it isn't considered an action.

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I have been told in many card clubs that moving chips forward is a call, no ifs ands or buts.

You got to think MM knows this rule as well -- granted he is a real dipshit. I think it was an angle-shoot on his part that probably would have been overturned (i.e. forced call) if it had been challenged.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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-- granted he is a real dipshit.

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Not sure what that has to do with anything...

back to your actual topic, it depends on the cardroom. WSOP may or may not have been enforcing this rule.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Last week in a WPF tourney at Foxwoods this happened on the first hand. I checked my cards right after the deal and put a 25 chip on them. When it was my turn to act, I pushed the chip off the cards, but forward not sideways and mucked.

The dealer says that's a call. They have a line but the chip got no where's near the line. I argued that it was obviously a fold and everyone at the table agreed with me but they all said that the instructions which I missed said if you move your chips forward of the cards it's a bet.

Since it was first hand and only a 25 chip they all let it slide.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last week in a WPF tourney at Foxwoods this happened on the first hand. I checked my cards right after the deal and put a 25 chip on them. When it was my turn to act, I pushed the chip off the cards, but forward not sideways and mucked.

The dealer says that's a call. They have a line but the chip got no where's near the line. I argued that it was obviously a fold and everyone at the table agreed with me but they all said that the instructions which I missed said if you move your chips forward of the cards it's a bet.

Since it was first hand and only a 25 chip they all let it slide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, I pretty much have my hand forward of my cards a hundred percent of the time when I'm chip riffling. I guess I'd be calling every hand there.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

This was such an absolute call and mistake by the dealer. The opponnent should have protested, it would have sent Mike off and probably earned Mike a time out after he told the guy to F... off.

I can see it being used by donks in future WSOP's, the call pump fake...

This was the worst hand played on all accounts last night, just brutal.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Definitely a call. The rest of the table seemed to be so star-struck by Mike that they ignored it (or just didn't know). I would have screamed for the floor if for no other reason to hopefully put Mikey on tilt.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last week in a WPF tourney at Foxwoods this happened on the first hand. I checked my cards right after the deal and put a 25 chip on them. When it was my turn to act, I pushed the chip off the cards, but forward not sideways and mucked.

The dealer says that's a call. They have a line but the chip got no where's near the line. I argued that it was obviously a fold and everyone at the table agreed with me but they all said that the instructions which I missed said if you move your chips forward of the cards it's a bet.

Since it was first hand and only a 25 chip they all let it slide.

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Geez, I pretty much have my hand forward of my cards a hundred percent of the time when I'm chip riffling. I guess I'd be calling every hand there.

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this is why I don't play at Mandalay Bay - because of shitty rules like this.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Had the guy he was up against protested and asked the dealer/floor to rule it a call they very well might have.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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Had the guy he was up against protested and asked the dealer/floor to rule it a call they very well might have.

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Which is the problem. If the guy calls the floor then he wants Mike to call. If the floor somehow rules that it isn't considered a call, mike can make an easy fold. If the guy says nothing then mike knows he doesn't want a call. It should have been to dealer's responsibility to say something, not the players.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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Had the guy he was up against protested and asked the dealer/floor to rule it a call they very well might have.

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Which is the problem. If the guy calls the floor then he wants Mike to call. If the floor somehow rules that it isn't considered a call, mike can make an easy fold. If the guy says nothing then mike knows he doesn't want a call. It should have been to dealer's responsibility to say something, not the players.

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Agreed. A smart player can reverse these expectations for floor calls to his advantage, however. I've done that before.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

There is no way they should have shown that hand on TV. As someone said, next time you go to a tournament you're going to see all kinds of people pulling off the "pump fake call."
I can't comment on what should have happened, no idea how the casino rules, but they should have cut it off the TV.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last week in a WPF tourney at Foxwoods this happened on the first hand. I checked my cards right after the deal and put a 25 chip on them. When it was my turn to act, I pushed the chip off the cards, but forward not sideways and mucked.

The dealer says that's a call. They have a line but the chip got no where's near the line. I argued that it was obviously a fold and everyone at the table agreed with me but they all said that the instructions which I missed said if you move your chips forward of the cards it's a bet.

Since it was first hand and only a 25 chip they all let it slide.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was at Foxwoods the dealer told me nobody cares about the line, if chips go in front of your cards then you've attempted to put them in the middle (whether it is a call or a raise).

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Matusow WANTED someone to freak out over his "chip-fake"?

I mean, it's not like he's new to poker or anything.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

In NV this is not viewed as a call where I play but hear people complain that it is in Ca, etc.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last week in a WPF tourney at Foxwoods this happened on the first hand. I checked my cards right after the deal and put a 25 chip on them. When it was my turn to act, I pushed the chip off the cards, but forward not sideways and mucked.

The dealer says that's a call. They have a line but the chip got no where's near the line. I argued that it was obviously a fold and everyone at the table agreed with me but they all said that the instructions which I missed said if you move your chips forward of the cards it's a bet.

Since it was first hand and only a 25 chip they all let it slide.

[/ QUOTE ]

T......I'm sure that if you check with Mike Ward, what he will tell you is that the line is for posting blinds and placing calls/raises with the sole reason being that it is there so that the dealers can easily reach all chips in action........

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

It seems like the WSOP dealers were unable to call forward motion properly, too much commentary during the hand, or anything else right.

The only thing (en masse) we saw was dealers getting involved on times the F-word was used. I hope is from the editing work, I fear it is from poor experience.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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In NV this is not viewed as a call where I play but hear people complain that it is in Ca, etc.

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Go to Green Valley Ranch if you want to see it viewed as a call in NV. Their NL table is notorious already (only open for a couple months) for these types of calls.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Gus did this ageeees ago.

How quickly you youngsters forget the Great Dane.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was such an absolute call and mistake by the dealer. The opponnent should have protested, it would have sent Mike off and probably earned Mike a time out after he told the guy to F... off.

I can see it being used by donks in future WSOP's, the call pump fake...

This was the worst hand played on all accounts last night, just brutal.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is though, had the guy protested and the floor ruled in Mike's favor (which COULD of happened, as after all, the announcer called it a 'Mike Matusow String Call move', which means Mike's gotten away with it before), then Mike would know that he was beaten, and the other guy would of ended up without getting those chips of Mike's.

I've had some questionable rulings by floors before, where I get taken aback as well.

Just this past weekend, I went all in, with pocket AA's as I was short stacked, the blinds being 400 and 800, and the guy on the button, raised it to 1800 total after we had gotten several limpers. I had 3800 in chips left, and was in the BB.

I looked down, found the pocket AA's and raised all in.

The dealer (who tends to mumble and can be sometimes hard to understand unless you've been around him a lot), called out SEVERAL times as he made his way around the table, how much more and how much total people needed to stay in.

It got back around to the Button guy, and he said how much? The dealer said '2800 more' (which was wrong), total of 3800.

Well, the kid on the button only heard the 2800 figure, and put out the extra 1k, and declared I call the 2800.

I said you call, he said yes I call. Jimmy (the Dealer) said, turn over your cards (since I was all in, and the SB had already folded), then once I flipped my Pocket A's, all of a sudden, Jimmy noticed the guy on the button was 1k short.

He told him he needed to put in another 1k chip since he called.

The guy protested, and said ... but I thought it was 2800! I've seen her cards now, I'd be foolish to call now (he later told me and I believed him, that he had had AK o/s)!

Floor Jimmy yelled.

Well, the floor came over, and the rule is, the floor will ONLY talk to the dealer, when trying to solve a dispute.

Jimmy neglected to tell him that he'd announced SEVERAL times what the total amount was to call to the entire table, BEFORE he got back to the guy on the button.

Well, the guy on the button said, I didn't hear how much the total all in amount was, as I was talking to my friend (the guy in the SB) at the time.

Well, said the floor, if you want, since you didn't hear, you can take back your extra (1k in) chips, and fold.

Then, the guy repeated, well, I'd be really stupid to call now, that I know she has pocket A's.

So, he took back the 1k, and folded, and I was then shorted 2k in chips I should of had (the 1k extra he had originally put in, and the other 1k for the full call).

I tried to insert the fact that Jimmy had announced the total amount several times to the table, but was told to be quiet by the floor, he'd ONLY listen to the dealer, and he'd made his ruling.

This even when another at the table tried to tell him that I was correct, that Jimmy had indeed said the total amount several times before he got to the guy who had raised it to 1800 before me.

Then the floor being a total jerk, when me and Mike (the kid that got out of having to call), were CALMLY and politely discussing what hand he had, and he was trying to tell me he was sorry I got cheated of the chips (he was being nice for real), not arguing (and neither of us were in a hand either), well the floor guy came over, and said "I said that's the end of it, I don't want it discussed anymore" and then Jimmy the dealer chimed in and said yeah, it's done ... don't talk about it anymore.

Well, I got kind of steamed, because Mike and myself were NOT causing a problem, but were just discussing it between to calm people, so I got up from the table to cool of a bit.

I then went and found my girlfriend (who had NOT seen what had happened), pulled her over into a corner away from the earshot of the table. She saw I was upset and asked me what was wrong. I started to tell her, and the floor seeing me talk to her, came over, listened for a sec, then looked pissed and said "I thought I told you I didn't want to hear you talking about that hand anymore. If you keep it up, I'll eject you from the tournament".

I was STUNNED ... I wasn't anywhere near the tables, wasn't talking to another player, was just talking to my girlfriend about it ... and here comes the gestopo telling me I can't talk about what happened to me to a NON player? Geez!

I ended up staying out for about a round because of all of this. Not because of the original call, but because of how I was treated AFTERWARDS by the floor and the dealer.

BTW ... it was a satelite event, and I ended up just a few spots from getting a seat. I don't know if I was affected by what the dealer had done to me or not (that is not finishing high enough to win a seat it the larger event).

Thus, sometimes it depends on who is the floor on these things, on how the ruling might go.

I was also surprised that Mike got away with doing that, and didn't get called and forced to call the bet period.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Where was this? I think the move here is to talk to the dealer so he can talk to the floor.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

It was in Dayton, Ohio. Granted, it was a charity event, but it was put on by a group who puts these on for charities (the Charities hire them) several times a year, for the past several years. Thus, they were NOT green horns.

That said, this was the first time I'd seen this person acting as the floor.

I would of protested higher, but given how this jerk was acting, sometimes it's just better to keep your mouth shut.

The thing is though, the GP for the Main event was for 10k, which made it all the more irritating, since I was a tad cash poor and coudn't afford to cough up another $140 to enter again.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

Ahhh, I see. I'll watch out for the frequently running charity event groups. Thanks.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

you should not be too disappointed pocket As can lose. hes probably getting 7 to 1 on the call. even though hes like a 9 to 1 underdog he should almost call considering the benefit of the double up.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

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you should not be too disappointed pocket As can lose. hes probably getting 7 to 1 on the call. even though hes like a 9 to 1 underdog he should almost call considering the benefit of the double up.

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clearly you're living up to your name.

Re: Matusow\'s forward chip movement -- call???
 

In a tournament the outcome of the hand affects everyone, since they are all competing to get all the chips. Hence the shown cards when all the $ is in and, in this case, the fact that anyone could/should have said the bet stood.

KJS