Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

This is my own thread based on Sklansky's most recent post about various religions effecting someone's ability to reason.
I pointed out that most of the horrible crimes such as the Holocaust, Slavery, various genocides and Christ's murder were legal and meticulously planned in many cases by the intelligentsia of the day.
This pulls back the curtain on the idea that the society's most intelligent will make better ethical decisions. I am not saying stupid, uneducated people would be superior. I am merely saying that there isn't a correlation between intelligence and ethics.
Intelligent people, for one thing, are much more likely to be able to rationalize, lie more efficiently and fool themselves and others. GW Bush without Karl Rove and Cheney would be nowhere. An idiot like him could not possibly pull off the things he's done without the help of intelligent people.
Point is, even geniuses are flawed psychologicaly. Without the proper emotional and mental maturity, ethical decisions will be poor at best. A supreme court justice ultimately makes ethical decisions...

g

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Point is, even geniuses are flawed psychologicaly. Without the proper emotional and mental maturity, ethical decisions will be poor at best. A supreme court justice ultimately makes ethical decisions...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be being biased by your opinions of ethics and what is ethical, as well as the creation of and reasons for following contemporary moral codes.

The fact is its all relative and you might be wrong and the intelligent people you're refering to might, in some instances, be right.

Do you think its ethical to allow people with genetic mental health problems to have children?

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Before I answer your question--answer my examples.
Were slavery and the holocaust right?

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Not in my opinion right now.

I don't disagree with some of Hitler's early ideas about only letting healthy people reproduce, he just got a bit carried away and had some poor information on what counted as a genetic dysfuntion.

I think that if less intelligent people got into power they would make propotionately worse decisions.

Being simple doesn't give a person more appreciation of ethics, it just makes them easier to train.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

In these two lines...

[ QUOTE ]
This is my own thread based on Sklansky's most recent post about various religions effecting someone's ability to reason.
I pointed out that most of the horrible crimes such as the Holocaust, Slavery, various genocides and Christ's murder were legal and meticulously planned in many cases by the intelligentsia of the day.


[/ QUOTE ]

...you seem to be inferring that intelligience and religiousness are mutually exclusive. I do not think this is the case. I think that the people who planned and perpetrated those acts were not without religion and they were very intelligient. If I was looking for a horrendous act to use as an example, I would look for something planned and perpetrated by agnostics or atheists. Then I could note the defect of agnostics/atheists in making ethical decisions and know that the defect didn't come from religious ideas but instead from a merely intelligent source...

You are right about GWBasic though. He could not be where he is without the help of intelligient people.

J

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is my own thread based on Sklansky's most recent post about various religions effecting someone's ability to reason.
I pointed out that most of the horrible crimes such as the Holocaust, Slavery, various genocides and Christ's murder were legal and meticulously planned in many cases by the intelligentsia of the day.
This pulls back the curtain on the idea that the society's most intelligent will make better ethical decisions. I am not saying stupid, uneducated people would be superior. I am merely saying that there isn't a correlation between intelligence and ethics.
Intelligent people, for one thing, are much more likely to be able to rationalize, lie more efficiently and fool themselves and others. GW Bush without Karl Rove and Cheney would be nowhere. An idiot like him could not possibly pull off the things he's done without the help of intelligent people.
Point is, even geniuses are flawed psychologicaly. Without the proper emotional and mental maturity, ethical decisions will be poor at best. A supreme court justice ultimately makes ethical decisions...

g

[/ QUOTE ]

I think when Sklansky says intelligent people he means those near the very top; those smart enough to not be religious. The Holocaust and U.S. slavery were perpetrated by Christians, and therefore they wouldn't be in the elite intelligence class that Sklansky refers to. I'm not saying I totally agree with Sklansky, but those examples, I believe, actually affirm his stance.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

The Soviet Union was anti-religious/atheistic.
Were they better decision makers/more ethical as you theorize?
Someone with a better understanding of history then me needs to step in here. I believe my point is still valid but am curious to hear more.

g

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
This pulls back the curtain on the idea that the society's most intelligent will make better ethical decisions. I am not saying stupid, uneducated people would be superior.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
The Soviet Union was anti-religious/atheistic.
Were they better decision makes/more ethical as you theorize?
Someone with a better understanding of history then me needs to step in here. I believe my point is still valid but am curious to hear more.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to hit a moving target. You started out on intelligence and ethics , and then threw in some religion and group politics. You're saying that all people would be equally ethical in their decisions? ( that roughly follows from your - intelligent ones don't make better nor will stupid ones). What does the soviet union have to do with that, or any other political example. The odds of a political group being in the top 20% of intelligence is quite small, it's not a field that attracts intelligence it's field that attracts powermongers.

Decisions made by a group don't equate to decisions made by an individual, partly because the group gets pulled toward the lowest common denominator, partly because the some of the gang can be pretty sick bastards but they offer something the group needs ( a specific voting block, serious money, the right friends, etc). by the time you get to the top you have tied in with Fredo, Sonny and Luca Brassi.

So group examples don’t work well. Individually perhaps we could look at the crime rate among the top 10% of intelligence and the bottom 10%, or some measure of individual action ( I’d want other conditions in place before I used the crime rate example).

Maybe you could clarify/simplify your claim.

Thanks, luckyme

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Well you make an interesting point. I have heard that some of the neocons are particularly intelligent people, at a level of genius IQ. I think the same is reported of someone like Henry Kissenger.
It is true that politics will more than likely attract powermongers. Many of these power mongers are also extremely intelligent by typical standards--i would guess top 10 percent.
But we could look into that more.
The fact is, I don't see these intelligent people making more ethical decisions or even better policy decisions, etc. than your average joe in the top 50% of intelligence would make.
There is a base level of intelligence one would need simply in order to understand certain political/ethical situations. After that, I would argue that psychological stability and emotional maturity would more than make up for any gaps in intelligence.
Unfortunately, it is difficult if not impossible to test for these important qualities and intelligence will more often than not be overvalued.

g

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

I agree with your OP and I'd say a good example is Jon von Neumann and his role in the first and only use of the atomic bomb for military purposes, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and permanently damaging the health of millions more.

Was that ethical?

I think even Sklansky would concede that von Neumann was more intelligent than himself, which automatically means he must have been among the top 3 smartest men in the world.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Holocaust and U.S. slavery were perpetrated by Christians

[/ QUOTE ]

The Nazi leadership were Christians?

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."--Adolf Hitler

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

check out this study. not entirely directly relevant to what you're specifically talking about, but you may find this interesting.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Smart people build their egos through intellectual superiority, dumb people have a tendency to build their egos through sensual pleasures. Smart or stupid doesn't matter, it's the ego-building that inhibits the mind's ability to be ethical IMO.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is my own thread based on Sklansky's most recent post about various religions effecting someone's ability to reason.
I pointed out that most of the horrible crimes such as the Holocaust, Slavery, various genocides and Christ's murder were legal and meticulously planned in many cases by the intelligentsia of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful about imposing modern day morality on historically different circumstances. Beliefs have been dynamic through history and different beliefs imply different moral actions.

[ QUOTE ]
This pulls back the curtain on the idea that the society's most intelligent will make better ethical decisions. I am not saying stupid, uneducated people would be superior. I am merely saying that there isn't a correlation between intelligence and ethics.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is, however, a correlation between intelligence and making better decisions. I think an intelligent, ethical person would make better ethical decisions than an unintelligent, ethical person. The relationship between intelligence and ethics is different and I can't say whether intelligent people are more ethical, especially since there are many different ideas on what proper ethics is.

[ QUOTE ]
Intelligent people, for one thing, are much more likely to be able to rationalize, lie more efficiently and fool themselves and others. GW Bush without Karl Rove and Cheney would be nowhere. An idiot like him could not possibly pull off the things he's done without the help of intelligent people.
Point is, even geniuses are flawed psychologicaly. Without the proper emotional and mental maturity, ethical decisions will be poor at best. A supreme court justice ultimately makes ethical decisions...

g

[/ QUOTE ]

Really intelligent people know when their rationalizations are complete nonsense. The whole notion of psychologically flawed bothers me here. Geniuses are not necessarily flawed at all. They can be within the normal psychological range just like most other people.

I'll come right out and say I'm not a fan of Dubya, but he's smarter than you think. I do agree he needed help to do what he has done, but so has every president.

I would ask whether a better ability to make decisions makes up for any difference between how ethical intelligent people are versus every else. I'd guess yes and I want intelligent people in charge because of this belief.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
check out this study. not entirely directly relevant to what you're specifically talking about, but you may find this interesting.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[/ QUOTE ]

It is interesting and i think you definitely should post it as its own thread to challenge religious believers. They should be expected to answer the challenge that religious populations so clearly fail to meet the criteria that secularist nations meet. that is, secular nations apparently tend to adhere to the moral framework better than religious ones.


However, my thread, although it touches on religion, is more about intelligence correlating with ethics.

g

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Good point and I agree.

According to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, ego is at level 4 which means most dumb people will never get there in any meaningful way because they are too busy working on the first three.

But it is still before level 5 which is where the ethical questions arise. So it could be argued that the most dangerous people are the ones at level 4, and it could just be that most world leaders are there -- scary thought.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

What a scary page.

[ QUOTE ]
The yellow triangle [spiritual needs], is my addition, and is not included in Maslow’s original pyramid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
What a scary page.

[ QUOTE ]
The yellow triangle [spiritual needs], is my addition, and is not included in Maslow’s original pyramid.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea of concrete steps in personal development strikes me as inauthentic and overly simplistic. I don't think personal development is like levels in The Legend of Zelda. Actually, even in that you could go beyond a level you hadn't yet conquered...

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Personally, I've recovered seven of the eight Triforce pieces in the second to last stage of Maslow's Hierarchy.

g

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Spiritual Needs are redundant and differ from mere self actualization. We need a higher form of love than we find from fellow humans. This Love is part of the natural Law of the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which natural law of the universe is that?

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

I don't know. I guess the author of that webpage must have made it up. I suppose I should have used a different link like

wikipedia

or

valdosta

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Hi Darryl_P,

I would like to point out to you that except, perhaps, for the bottom three levels, Maslow's theory is not very contemporary, or useful, in psychology and was, ever, only reprentative of one movement within psychology at the time.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Hi MidGe,

Are you saying it doesn't match your own observations of people's drives? If so, what kinds of counterexamples have you seen? It matches mine quite well, so I'm a believer in the overall theory. I could change my mind, though, if I see some counterexamples.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without the proper emotional and mental maturity, ethical decisions will be poor at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed; a person with a family, lots of life experience both good and bad, who is optimistic and happy and possibly "spiritual" will make better ethical decisions than someone who is good at solving brain teasers.

I would argue that an intelligent person is more likely to fit the first category than a stupid person, but the correlation would be small if anything, and I have nothing to base it on.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

Hi Daryl_p,

thanks for the courtesy of replying and raising the issue that you raise. It is interesting.

In my case, since you ask, my observation, of myself and others, makes it a much murkier field that Maslow simplistic categorising does, however useful it may have, and still may be.

Lets put is that way, I find smplistic categorisation of people (Gurdjieff types, Myers-Briggs, astrology, Maslow, etc.) simplistic and, at the end, neither accurate nor a valid model of what I see (it is much more complex).

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

You're welcome, but I don't think it's necessary to thank me for a reply. I'm not Sklansky you know, just a mere mortal [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

OK I can accept that, but I don't think the model suggests that people are not varied and complex. Of course it can't be all that earth-shattering either or else more people would have heard about it.

Re: Intelligent People Do not Make Better Ethical Decisions
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my case, since you ask, my observation, of myself and others, makes it a much murkier field that Maslow simplistic categorising does, however useful it may have, and still may be.

Lets put is that way, I find smplistic categorisation of people (Gurdjieff types, Myers-Briggs, astrology, Maslow, etc.) simplistic and, at the end, neither accurate nor a valid model of what I see (it is much more complex).

[/ QUOTE ]

I got my BA in psychology recently...although I'm pretty far from being able to accurately represent the psychological community, I can say with assurance that any psychologist worth his salt recognizes these theoretical models as just that...theory.

What it helps us do, however, is examine basic traits alongside other things. For example, we might examine those who have high extroversion in a Meyers-Briggs test along a certain trait in childhood. If there's a correlation, then we have a hypothesis and something to experiment with, and eventually find a meaningful connection that could prove useful later.

Basically, it's a way to give researchers ideas.