\"Unions are Evil\"
 

For those of you that feel this way, are unions inherently evil or have they just drifted that way?

I think if you deny the fact that unions have played a major role in improving working conditions/worker's rights then you are ignoring part of history. The Jungle should be mandatory reading. If drifts off into becoming a socialist pamphlet but it provides a great picture of working conditions before unions. It also doesn't just paint a rosy picture of unions, but talks about how they were often corrupt and used to exploit workers.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

unions create artifically high wages

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

The primary role of unions is to defend and demand nothing short of mediocrity from every member.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

I don't believe anyone thinks that unions are evil. Except for the Mafia portions.

A lot of people believe that today's labor movement is essentially anachronistic. Under federal law, unions in certification elections can lie and make all sorts of promises they have no way of keeping ("We'll get you a wage increase"; "We'll keep them from moving jobs to China"), while those same laws restrict the employers ability to fight back. Once unions are in, they have little positive impact and often work harm. Flexible dispute resolution and employer-employee communication are impeded or completely destroyed. Profitability or worker's wages have to decrease to pay for union dues. Employers cannot respond to changing market conditions by freely hiring and firing workers. Strikes wreak havoc on families and are almost never effective in today's world. And most importantly, the working unit changes from a friendly partnership to a hostile divided camp.

The Delphi/GM situation is a lovely illustration of how greedy union politicians trying to look good for the workers can imperil thousands of American jobs and destroy an entire enterprise.

So, in short, unions aren't evil, they're just bad.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Being the son of a former union organizer, my view may be somewhat skewed. However, this is my opinion:

There WAS a need for unions. The need came because too much "power" was concentrated in the hands of a relatively few, especially if the local area had only one or two major employers.

In many cases, unions are NOW completely at odds with what may be good for the workers as well as the employer. They have changed the balance of power in the employee/employer relationship to an extreme. Now, a relatively few union executives control much more power than the former business owners ever did. If unions were allowed to only represent employees of a single employer, instead of whole industries, perhaps a case could made for their continued existence. But, as has previously been posted, I do think they (unions) tend to perpetuate mediocrity.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Unions can be a great tool. Unfortunately, they aren't being used that way.

Imagine an electricians union. They screen who can get in. You have to have a level of expirience, pass tests, and prove you know what you are doing. You are then in the union. The union can sell itself as having better quality work and therefore hiring more expensive union workers is a better proposition for the company.

Most people are willing to pay a little extra for extra quality. Most companies are as well.

So where do unskilled unions come from? They offer no unique skillset, no benefits to the employer. Is it government protection that prevents the employer from simply replacing workers who demand more money without cause? Why would any business owner agree to support a union when a new workforce can be trained within a week?

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Unions make employees feel they are "entitled" to compensation increases regardless of company performance.

My local teachers union, already the highest paid teachers in the state, went on strike following the 2001 recession when tons of students' parents had been laid off and couldn't find jobs (ie. the real world). These teachers now get paid around $105K + a ~$25K PPO plan, after 8 years teaching + a masters. Just sickening.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unions make employees feel they are "entitled" to compensation increases regardless of company performance.

My local teachers union, already the highest paid teachers in the state, went on strike following the 2001 recession when tons of students' parents had been laid off and couldn't find jobs (ie. the real world). These teachers now get paid around $105K + a ~$25K PPO plan, after 8 years teaching + a masters. Just sickening.

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"Company performance"? Teachers are part of the public service, so this is a bad example of trying to refute the idea of so-called entitlement increases.

A company claims it needs a wage reduction or else it will move the plant to Mexico. Since the membership gets to vote on any negotiated settlement, it would be the democratic decision of the bargaining unit on whether or not to accept a final offer by management. Sometimes, like in the fog of war, communication breakdown may lead to one side or the other not believing the other's true intentions. So, off the cliff they go. That goes for management as well in the case of underestimating a union bargaining unit's resolve to strike.

It would probably be unwise for a union to negotiate a wage increase that puts a company out of business. Obviously, I want any company I negotiate with to do BETTER so that we can obtain better wages and benefits through collective bargaining. Of course, it MUST be through collective bargaining as there is no pie in the sky trickle down effect where a company would actually attempt to share, however meagerly, the new profits.

Yearly wage and benefit increases was what employers promised in return for labour peace and unions giving up any claim to ownership of the company. This deal was ratified by federal legislation in the 1930s-50s. Management has increasingly reneged on this deal. Some union members may still see bargaining as goody bag time but fewer and fewer union professionals see it that way.

In solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you that feel this way, are unions inherently evil or have they just drifted that way?

I think if you deny the fact that unions have played a major role in improving working conditions/worker's rights then you are ignoring part of history. The Jungle should be mandatory reading. If drifts off into becoming a socialist pamphlet but it provides a great picture of working conditions before unions. It also doesn't just paint a rosy picture of unions, but talks about how they were often corrupt and used to exploit workers.

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I'm against Unions for Goverment workers. What do they need a union for?

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine an electricians union. They screen who can get in...

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This is what many people fail to realize. Skilled trades unions such as electricians, operating engineers, carpenters, etc. are only protecting their own trade. Traditionally, a skilled trade union has been able to keep the standards of the industry high. Increasingly, however, the US government has introduced legislation trumping a skilled trade union's power over its own trade. When they have done this the training and education of new members, safety standards, and workmanship have declined.

[ QUOTE ]
So where do unskilled unions come from? They offer no unique skillset, no benefits to the employer. Is it government protection that prevents the employer from simply replacing workers who demand more money without cause? Why would any business owner agree to support a union when a new workforce can be trained within a week?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not asking for the owner to support the union, believe me. Successor rights legislation prevent a company from just closing for a day and reopening under a new name in order to bust the union. This legislation prevents mass labour unrest.

The employees demand, through the union, a wage increase. What's to prevent the company from firing them all? Nothing really. The bargaining process is set up by legislation to stop one party or the other acting too hastily but once the process is exhausted a company can lock out its employees and hire new ones depending on local anti-scab legislation.

Any group of employees, skilled or unskilled, can democratically form a union in order to collectively negotiate better wages and benefits because on their own, as you say, they have no power, the company has it all. Without a union there is pitifully little legislation protecting workers. You seem to suggest that employees should be discarded at whim. I believe that in the lop-sided employee-employer relationship, especially when the only thing that the employee has is his time in, collective action is the only way to at least have some small chance at leveling the playing field.

In solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

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If unions were allowed to only represent employees of a single employer, instead of whole industries,

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The North American industrial relations model has developed where union locals represent workers at the plant level not industry wide, as in Europe, though there are exceptions.

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Now, a relatively few union executives control much more power than the former business owners ever did.

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You think that any union executive has the power that business owners do? At what level? Executives are elected. Owners aren't. I'd say union executives have far LESS power, legislated that way since the 60s, than they used to. But, sometimes, I wish we were back in the days when I could get some muscle to get even with the things that management does every day, heh.

You're right about there being a change in the balance in the employer/employee balance of power. If you think that unions have somehow made the tilt in favour of the worker, I'm flabbergasted.

In solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

There is a thread called Mass defection from the AFL-CIO that became about this topic a few months ago. The link thingy isn't working right now. The thread started 6/29/05.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Further more, the unions SHOULD have more power than the owners. The owners should be in fear of the union's ability to close their business. This way the workers are not exploited (at least as little as is possible since every worker is exploited under capitalism) and the owners get their profit margins.

Claiming the unions have power over the owners is ridiculous. If anything the burracracy of large unions have basically sold out thier constituents to the owners.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

"Under federal law, unions in certification elections can lie and make all sorts of promises they have no way of keeping ("We'll get you a wage increase"; "We'll keep them from moving jobs to China"), while those same laws restrict the employers ability to fight back."

Laughably wrong.

"Once unions are in, they have little positive impact and often work harm. Flexible dispute resolution and employer-employee communication are impeded or completely destroyed. Profitability or worker's wages have to decrease to pay for union dues. Employers cannot respond to changing market conditions by freely hiring and firing workers. Strikes wreak havoc on families and are almost never effective in today's world. And most importantly, the working unit changes from a friendly partnership to a hostile divided camp."

Bobman may have become totally delusional, like a rabid, slavering dog, in his quest to complete his studies and enter the real world as a corporate labour relations lawyer/union buster. The brain-washing is complete yet tends to result in oft-repeated meaningless propaganda being spouted. What pamphlet was that diatribe from anyway? You know, Bobman, when there is serious debate in this forum about whether, not to increase, but to actually abolish the minimum wage(!) you definitely have too easy an audience. Out there, people have to live with the other people around them.

In solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bobman may have become totally delusional, like a rabid, slavering dog, in his quest to complete his studies and enter the real world as a corporate labour relations lawyer/union buster. The brain-washing is complete yet tends to result in oft-repeated meaningless propaganda being spouted. What pamphlet was that diatribe from anyway? You know, Bobman, when there is serious debate in this forum about whether, not to increase, but to actually abolish the minimum wage(!) you definitely have too easy an audience. Out there, people have to live with the other people around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh Hamish, if you weren't such a bloodsucking parasite on the body of American industry, your overblown rhetoric would be charming. Anyways, I'm not planning on being a labor lawyer. Not enough money.

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"Under federal law, unions in certification elections can lie and make all sorts of promises they have no way of keeping ("We'll get you a wage increase"; "We'll keep them from moving jobs to China"), while those same laws restrict the employers ability to fight back."

Laughably wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. While I work on finding the Wagner Act cites and NLRB decisions, tell us how many promises you or your unions made to win elections that you failed to keep. (Hint: if you say none, we'll know you're lying.)

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
are unions inherently evil or have they just drifted that way?


[/ QUOTE ]

Tragically the average American believes that this is the question rather than, "How can I make the Union at my workplace live up to the ideal we had from the start?" Are they evil through and through or have they just become that way?!? Um, option C please.

The battles can be won and lost on the picket line, legislation goes for and against unions, and arbitrations are won and lost. Unions have failed to continue to educate people about the obvious benefits of unionizing their workplace. Enemies of the working class have managed to pull the wool over the people's eyes with this nonsense about union corruption, union tyranny, etc. Now, when working people need help the most, businesses have actually stepped up this Orwellian campaign.

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed. They have done more for decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the developing of character in men, than any other association of men." - Clarence Darrow.

In Solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Unions good:
You know workers need collective bargaining. Unions are the sole reason why there are safety standards for workers, why employers can't make employees work 80 hours a week.

Unions bad:
QFC pays people $15+ a hour. That's not good. It really decreases competitive edge and costs jobs in sectors like customer service and automation production. Unions are why outsourcing exists.

Workers need collective bargaining, but after a while, the value of what someone does becomes very artificial, and you get outsourcing, among other things.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Further more, the unions SHOULD have more power than the owners. The owners should be in fear of the union's ability to close their business. This way the workers are not exploited (at least as little as is possible since every worker is exploited under capitalism) and the owners get their profit margins.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if a worker is "mistreated" without a union, what keeps him from walking out? Do owners of non-union shops shoot the dissenters? How are workers "exploited"?

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

My mom has been a dues paying union member for DC37 for 6 years. She quit a month ago. Two days ago she got a letter charging her for a hospital visit that resulted from an on the job injury back in April. When she had trouble with her employer she called the union, explained it happened while she was still paying dues, and they told her that it wasn't thier problem.

While she worked there she was also union shop steward until she quit. The office workers made outrageous demands, like 15min smoking breaks every hour. She was so embarrased she just quit.

Even "successful" unions are failures. I'm sure the negotiators for the Delphi guys though they were freaking genuises when they got $65/hour pay for some factory workers. Was it really such a surprise when the company went bankrupt.

Corrupt and incompetent doesn't even begin to describe unions.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine an electricians union. They screen who can get in. You have to have a level of expirience, pass tests, and prove you know what you are doing. You are then in the union. The union can sell itself as having better quality work and therefore hiring more expensive union workers is a better proposition for the company.

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That would be nice if they actually worked that way. My dad had to recently join the elevator union because they harassed him at every job site he was at when he was non-union. They would say that he was breaking security regulations and other stuff. The truth is they were full of [censored]. My dad has been in the business for 33 years, and he is the 4th generation to work with elevators.

The corrupt leaders of the union offered union membership to several employees of my dad's business and then fired them once my dad was "forced" to join the union. They never wanted the employees, they just want to dismantle any competition. Everyone was hurt except for the top members of the union. The consumer has to pay more for an elevator now because of the oligopoly and workers lost their jobs.

[ QUOTE ]
Most people are willing to pay a little extra for extra quality. Most companies are as well.

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Union quality is usually poor. My dad refuses to higher any union workers because he knows how worthless they are. The union workers have no reason to be good because the union controls the labor supply.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. While I work on finding the Wagner Act cites and NLRB decisions, tell us how many promises you or your unions made to win elections that you failed to keep. (Hint: if you say none, we'll know you're lying.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned from the start not to promise anything in terms of wages and benefits. I can and have promised that someone who signs a card or votes for the union will receive the things that are guaranteed in a collective agreement if one is reached. That includes at least a grievance procedure of some sort.

I would never promise something that is not a guarantee. First agreement negotiations are a bit tougher than once the CA has been around for a while so you never know what will happen during negotiations. I promise people at least they will have a kick at the can. Unlike now. Anyway, after all the anti-union tactics have been exhausted and the company sits down to negotiate in good faith I can't fathom a situation where an employee would be worse off than before. I've said before, it's a vote. If I come back with a contract that doesn't at least cover your dues (1 or 2 hours a month, tax deductible) plus 1 or 2% (or much more if that's the kicker), then vote against it. Simple.

The assertion that a union can do more during a unionizing campaign than the company is daft. I can't call a meeting on company time at the workplace and present my case, unlike management. I can't fire employees as an example knowing full well the impotence of the NLRB in getting them back to work. The campaign can be shut down that way. I am a salesman. I can hand out flyers and hold meetings (non-mandatory). I don't hold the intimidating power that the big boss possesses. If, even then, I manage to convince enough people to sign cards, showing clear support for unionizing, they still have to vote multiple times before a union is certified. The time for the anti-union company SWAT team to terrorize the employees is far too long. Even principle organizers within the plant can not talk about unionizing except on their breaks. God forbid that I even come close to company property.

I'd love to promise the moon. Some do it but it's just bad salemanship.

In solidarity, Hamish.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Further more, the unions SHOULD have more power than the owners. The owners should be in fear of the union's ability to close their business. This way the workers are not exploited (at least as little as is possible since every worker is exploited under capitalism) and the owners get their profit margins.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be an anti-capitalist if you believe this. I hope you don't live in the US.

Does the average liberal think like this? I would be really scared if they do.

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What's to prevent the company from firing them all? Nothing really.

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Maybe the competition?

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Those bastards probably only work 185 days a year too.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those bastards probably only work 185 days a year too.

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Yes, summers off naturally. And after 10 years of teaching they get tenure, which prevents them from ever being fired or layed off except for extreme cases (which never happen).

And when the next contract is up in 3-4 years, they will go on strike again if they dont get another large pay raise and increase in an already lucrative medical compensation package.

Again, a total detachment from reality due to "entitlement" syndrome that goes along with doling out confiscated taxpayer money.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine an electricians union. They screen who can get in. You have to have a level of expirience, pass tests, and prove you know what you are doing. You then have to be sponsored, bribe, be related to a member, or otherwise extort your way into the union

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those bastards probably only work 185 days a year too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, summers off naturally. And after 10 years of teaching they get tenure, which prevents them from ever being fired or layed off except for extreme cases (which never happen).

And when the next contract is up in 3-4 years, they will go on strike again if they dont get another large pay raise and increase in an already lucrative medical compensation package.

Again, a total detachment from reality due to "entitlement" syndrome that goes along with doling out confiscated taxpayer money.

[/ QUOTE ]

My high school physics teacher choked another female teacher at one of the board of ed meetings and he was untouchable because of tenure. He also threatened to kill the principle.

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saw something on CNBC yesterday about GM job bank and how its costing them 750 million a yr now to keep people that shouldn't be employed by the company , but are because of the contracts with the unions, now it would be all fine and dandy if GM wasn't losing money but they are and their losses are only gonna grow larger.

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Are you really serious, The Jungle should be mandatory...you realize it was written by a socialist...wonder if he puts a good spin on unions.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
saw something on CNBC yesterday about GM job bank and how its costing them 750 million a yr now to keep people that shouldn't be employed by the company , but are because of the contracts with the unions, now it would be all fine and dandy if GM wasn't losing money but they are and their losses are only gonna grow larger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then GM should've had a better idea of where their business was headed and negotiated a better contract. The contract was a mutual agreement willingly signed by both parties involved. Isn't that what capitalism is supposed to be about?

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watch Harlan County USA or American Dream...

Unions keep workers and families making a fair wage - Maybe not EVERY Union - but far and away I think Rural and Blue Collar America benefits from them -

Of course if your sole goal is to pull a bait-and-switch on people who come to work for you and cut wages to increase stock options, then yah, they're bad -

Only people that hate unions or think they're bad are rich people - period.

RB

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only people that hate unions or think they're bad are rich people - period.

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Heh.


We have this guy that stumbles into our weekly game occaisonally. The ongoing joke is that he only shows up when he's working (union big 3 job). The sad part is it's true.

I know you guys will say sample size, etc. But growing up in the motor city these stories are all too common. Working with engineers, plant managers -- sometimes I am amazed that the domestic automobile business is still alive at all.

I think the phrase "not in my job description" had to have originated with a union member.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
watch Harlan County USA or American Dream...

Unions keep workers and families making a fair wage - Maybe not EVERY Union - but far and away I think Rural and Blue Collar America benefits from them -

Of course if your sole goal is to pull a bait-and-switch on people who come to work for you and cut wages to increase stock options, then yah, they're bad -

Only people that hate unions or think they're bad are rich people - period.

RB

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Maybe instead of getting your information from movies, you should look in the real world. Particularly the huge swathes of the country that are largely un-unionized. Also consider the fact that unions lose most certification fights.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

there is a difference between auto unions and many other unions as well - auto unions sorta have their own screwed up way of doing things - that's why you're seeing so many fractures and issues within the big unions -

Detroit bad apples do not invalidate the whole union cause -

RB

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you are aware that those movies are documentaries that are shot in the real world with real people, right? Real issues where Americans even DIED because the foreman shot one who was on a picket line - shotgun blast to the face.

Maybe you should be better informed before you open your mouth - Those movies are Award Winning Documentaries about the plight and purpose of Rural unions in America. They are as informative as any book on the subject you'll read and have inspired books themselves.

RB

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are aware that those movies are documentaries that are shot in the real world with real people, right? Real issues where Americans even DIED because the foreman shot one who was on a picket line - shotgun blast to the face.

Maybe you should be better informed before you open your mouth - Those movies are Award Winning Documentaries about the plight and purpose of Rural unions in America. They are as informative as any book on the subject you'll read and have inspired books themselves.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, documentaries. When you put it that way, I guess my advice is:

"Maybe instead of getting your information from movies, you should look in the real world. Particularly the huge swathes of the country that are largely un-unionized. Also consider the fact that unions lose most certification fights. "

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Granted most of my experience relates to auto unions. But isn't what where it all started? Aren't those the "prototypical" unions?

Try and do a trade show at a detroit expo center. You are _forced_ to pay union scale wage to an electrician to screw in a light bulb.

Again, perhaps I am jaded because I was raised in a union region. But to me, the unions main purposes are to:

- Extort money from the membership.
- Artificially inflate wages.
- Defend those who perform below average.
- Punish those who perform above average.

The day and age where unskilled labor can earn $30/hour are gone. Loooong gone.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

IMO one of the reasons for the decline in unions is that the workforce has changed a great deal over the years. The days of the unskilled laborer being in demand are over in this country. Many people that acquire skills that are desirable for employers don't wish to throw their lot in with people they feel are less skilled. There's a place for unions but there is less need for them now as compared to 20-30 years ago.

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

One can argue that the unions and management of the US steel industry joined together to destroy that industry in the 1970's. Does that make them evil? Probably not (same for management.) But it was criminally stupid of both sides.

I haven't studied the auto industry as much so I can't make the same claim about the UAW and the Big Three automakers, but I'd be willing to bet that there is a strong parallel.

FWIW, my Father's company was essentially put out of business by the Union (this was in the 1970's as well.) It's a long story which I'd be happy to share at some other time, but basically it had to do with job classifications and (domestic) competition and even though the Union never had a complaint with my Dad's company and always were treated properly they refused to negotiate on this and the company shut its doors. The company was in a vibrant industry in Chicago. Within 2 or 3 years after this what was left of the industry in Chicago was gone as well. Evil? No. Stupid? I think so but YMMV.

Chuck

Re: \"Unions are Evil\"
 

Isn't this the strike that led to the Yablonsky murders?