Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

This was a hand from tonight that I thought I played really well...but I know I am a rookie and needed to be sure in case I was over looking something...
The table had a VPIP around 48 and mostly passive play.

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
I realize I have 3 outs to 2pair, 1.5 outs to BDSD, and 2 outs to trips for a total of 6.5 outs and I discounted my outs by 1 to give me 5.5 outs, and this gives me odds of 7.5 to 1. For me to call the flop I had 9 to 1, and I had two fish behind me so I figured I would get atleast 10 to 1...so I had odds to call the flop bet
Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds.
I made two pair of the turn and I planned on check/raising to protect my hand...
River: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.
I believe I have the best hand and bet out to get money in the pot...
Final Pot: 13 BB

Anybody see anything wrong in my play or logic with this hand??
All advice welcome
Hades18

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

don't forget that on the flop you often have the best hand.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

I don't check-raise often enough, but i'm leading this turn. You have no guarantee MP2 will bet this again, and giving a free card sucks on this board. If MP2 does bet, you're trapping MP2 and CO in the middle, which kinda sucks since, again, the board is coordinated.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

It looks like you're trying to "protect" too many hands that you're ahead in. Betting out on the flop protects your top pair (probably good), giving 6 outers or less odds to fold. Bet for value on the turn and river.

Don't always assume that you're behind with strong cards. It's probably why you get rivered so much (causing you to play even more passively).

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

Aaron

Maybe I am missing something here..on the turn I believe I have the best hand with my 2pair, but there is a straight draw and flush draw on the board, so wouldnt I be raising or betting to protect my hand against these???
On the river I again believe I have the best hand and this bet was for value, I def dont want him to fold...
I see the turn as a chance to protect and the river as a chance to bet for value, if I am wrong plz help me see it more clearly...
thxs
Hades18

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

You protect a hand to give your opponents a negative EV on their weak draws. By raising, you give them roughly half the odds to call, making draws that could call profitably before your raise unprofitable. When they fold to your raise, your equity goes up because they fold a hand that will beat you X% of the time (and any X greater than 0 lowers your pot equity). When they call, your equity still goes up because they contribute dead money to a pot that belongs to you when they miss.

On the turn, a check raise wouldn't even work because the likely bettor is to your left. Only one player will be forced to pay your two bets. (A check-raise on a LP bet is probably correct since you know a club draw is only 5.6-to-1 to hit).

Since you are probably the favorite to win this pot, you should bet for value. You're still profitable against a flush draw and open-ender -- make them pay to see the river!

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

You talk about the flop as if you are already drawing...you often have the best hand here.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

You have a weak made pair on the flop. You need to bet out to protect your hand. You absolutely (I'm sure someone will disagree) NOT call this hand with three callers in front of you. I believe (someone please correct me if I am wrong) this would be considered an overcall. You are facing a flush draw and a large field of overcards. If you either can not or are unwilling to protect this hand by betting the flop, then you MUST fold when their is a bet and one or more callers. I think your check-raise is good for building the pot, but you do not have the best possible hand and I fail to see how it protects your hand. In this situation, 3 people folded, but usually they will call another bet especially if the board is uncoordinated. They probably thought you were on a flush or straight draw (or even had a made straight) and some of their outs (if they are even thinking of outs) are counterfeit. I bet the turn and look for aggression, but I think what you did was alright. I bet the river. One last thing. On the flop you did not have three outs to two pair, you only had 2--the 8d gives a flush draw if it hits the turn (like it did). So even if you make your hand on the turn, you may still lose on the river--I would not even count it (someone berate me for this).

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
You talk about the flop as if you are already drawing...you often have the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

preflop good

flop.... wtf? why are you counting outs with TP????
just bet it out

turn... your not protecting your hand, your trapping the field for 2 bets. i probably bet this out, but c/r is just as good if not better

river standard

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

Bet the flop or check/fold.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
You absolutely (I'm sure someone will disagree) NOT call this hand with three callers in front of you. I believe (someone please correct me if I am wrong) this would be considered an overcall. You are facing a flush draw and a large field of overcards. If you either can not or are unwilling to protect this hand by betting the flop, then you MUST fold when their is a bet and one or more callers. I think your check-raise is good for building the pot, but you do not have the best possible hand and I fail to see how it protects your hand. In this situation, 3 people folded, but usually they will call another bet especially if the board is uncoordinated. They probably thought you were on a flush or straight draw (or even had a made straight) and some of their outs (if they are even thinking of outs) are counterfeit. I bet the turn and look for aggression, but I think what you did was alright. I bet the river. One last thing. On the flop you did not have three outs to two pair, you only had 2--the 8d gives a flush draw if it hits the turn (like it did). So even if you make your hand on the turn, you may still lose on the river--I would not even count it (someone berate me for this).

[/ QUOTE ]

*berate berate*

*disagree disagree*

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

folding should not be in your vocabulary at any point in this hand. you have TP..... TP!

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

He has a weak pair in a small pot on a LARGE drawing board. What does this bring to mind?

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

9 to 1 is a small pot?

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

when you guys were saying betbetbetbetbetbetbetbet it's 5:1 yes?


EDIT: How often is a pair of 7's going to hold up in this pot? This looks like reversed implied odds here to me. The way it went, I don't think the checkraise on the turn was all that horrible.

I said check/fold, maybe that's not so good, check/fold is actually sounding really dumb. But I certainly don't like betting out here. You're more than likely not going to have the best hand against this field on the river. And if it does hold up you're not going to collect any bets on the river more than likely.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

yes....

but arent we talking about the check/fold scenario?

by the time it gets to you are getting 9-1

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

yeah, read my edited post. I think to continue drawing is thin, but not necessarily bad.

9:1 isn't small, but we DO have to look at our hand as a drawing hand. plug it into pokerstove with a FD hand, 2 hands with overcards, a gutshot hand and a couple of random hands.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

I check this flop and raise a late-position bet because our hand is probably good here and we want to knock out overcards. If it's bet in EP and called by 2-3 players I probably just call and see what the turn brings. Betting this flop is probably bad due to negative implied odds (no card other than an 8/7/3 is a great card for us).

Bet out the turn though - you don't want to give the double-flushes a free card to snag their river (and you almost certainly have the best hand). This check-raise is an interesting play though (dunno how you can bet/fold the turn being MP1).

Easy river bet.

I don't mind how you played it though - but I fear that you played it this way for reasons contrary to why you should have made those plays (i.e. check/calling flop because you're counting odds and check/raising the turn for protection instead of for the rationale I gave)

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

yep reverse implied odds is DEFINITELY a negative factor in deciding to call, its just not enough though with the chances of improvement to fold.

btw, you realise i replied to your mail right? just checking... maybe i screwed it up

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

you can't pokerstove this hand very effectively because a lot of overcard hands are folding the turn unimproved, not giving them the river opportunity

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

Its been said, but needs to be resaid. You arent protecting anything on the turn by doing a checkraise. If the previous streets aggressor was directly on your right and you were sure he would bet again, then go for the checkraise to protect.

Your action on the flop came from the MP position and by the time you checkraise you are only making 1 person out of the 4 call 2 cold to continue. The others now have at least 10-1 odds to call (by the time it get to CO again he could be getting 15-1 on his call, how is that protecting?), whereas they wouldve had as little as 5-1 odds if you just lead out.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

I was pokerstoving the flop, I think I said that but maybe not...anyway, I like the turn personally. He's charging a draw the maximum to see the river. They're going to call anyway. And overcards are going to fold the turn, you're correct.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

[ QUOTE ]

flop.... wtf? why are you counting outs with TP????
just bet it out


[/ QUOTE ]
I knew I had top pair on this flop but with such a loose table I didnt think my pair was gonna hold up(maybe this was my error to start with)...Let say I had top pair with an A or K or other good cards, than I wouldnt worry about outs on the flop..I just wanted to clearify that I knew I had top pair on the flop and I usually dont care about outs when i do have it...
Hades18

there were so many cards that could come to give one of my many opponents top pair, so I played like I had to improve to win the hand, and if I would of had a higher top pair that had a chance of winning UI I would not have counted outs like I was drawing..
Thxs for all the replies....

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

on the flop, you're probably best. at these limits, any flush draw, any middle or bottom pair, any Ax in position will bet this flop when checked to. i'd try for a C/R. betting out's not bad either, but IMO both options are preferable to check-call.

on the turn, i would lead here. your 2 pair are best here a good % of the time and given the chance, OESD's and f-draws will check this through (esp. if you raised the flop) but call when presented with a bet. naked 8's will sometimes raise you, and any other pair you're beating will come along for the ride or fold.

the river bet is good.

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

With a hand like this on this kind of draw-ish board, don't you have to ask how often you're going to be ahead by the river?

Re: Can you find any errors in my play here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
With a hand like this on this kind of draw-ish board, don't you have to ask how often you're going to be ahead by the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it that you're putting villains on? if it's a fdraw or OESD, how confident are you that hands like those will bet this turn if checked to? What about a pair weaker than yours like say, A6s?