How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Did I play this well or should I have bet the river?

Villian is 42.6/4.3/1.06/47

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

You missed a value bet on the river

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You missed a value bet on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop as well.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

This hand is pretty ugly IMO.

You should have raised preflop 100% of the time. Opening on the button is a raise/fold situation. Never limp on the button.
You should have raised the flop 100% of the time against this villian.

The whole hand would play different from there.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Raise preflop (big mistake), raise the flop, raise the turn, bet the river (even bigger mistake).

1/4.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Well. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Raising the flop would probably have caused him to fold after my turn bet.

That's why I waited for the turn, to get 2 dollar out of him instead of 1.

And I realise now I should have bet the river, since chances were nil he had a better hand.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop would probably have caused him to fold after my turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

And not raising the flop gives him a cheap shot at his overcards or [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush draw. Would you rather win the pot on the turn, or have a king, queen or jack fall on the river (there are 12 cards out there that make you unhappy, and only 5 that you love with your TPTK hand on the flop)?

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Raising the flop would probably have caused him to fold after my turn bet.

That's why I waited for the turn, to get 2 dollar out of him instead of 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
so he'll fold if you raise the flop and bet the turn, but he won't fold if you call the flop and raise the turn? you have it backwards. he'll fold more often when you play it this way.

but the preflop and river play are worse than the flop and turn play.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

...and it is very likely you have the best hand. If you don't raise when you probably have the best hand what are you gonna raise with?

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

I agree, this pf play needs work and the river is an easy value bet. Focus on those aspects first then worry about the flop/turn play. In general if you never waited until the turn to raise this you won't be loosing much, and compared to the preflop and river those are much bigger mistakes right now.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

raise pf
river check is not good at all.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

you should always raise ATo preflop if you're the first in. (with some minor exceptions)

you should always raise from the button if you're the first in (and the CO, and the Hi-Jack, with some even more minor exceptions).

therefore, you should raise ATo from the button 100% of the time when you're the first in.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

grunching...
definitely raise that flop when it's folded to you on the button with AT. I forget how hand coverter treats CO posters--I guess he checked? That's more dead money in your pocket.

you have to raise that flop. It is draw heavy: overcards, straights, flushes.

Since you raised the turn, the river bet will probably fold a worse hand, but there's chance that SB may want to pay you to see your cards. I'm 50/50 on bet or check it down.

I'm sure others will mention that it would have turned out differently if you'd raised pre-flop. You would have probably won on the flop, which is where the most of the profit in this kind of hand comes from.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Raise PF.

Raise the flop.

Bet the river.

Congratulations on the turn play, though.

1 outta 4 ain't bad. No wait, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. 1 out of 4....eeehhhhh..... anyway.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed a value bet on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise flop as well

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Did CO seriously open fold his posted blind?

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Why did you check the river???

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, this pf play needs work and the river is an easy value bet. Focus on those aspects first then worry about the flop/turn play. In general if you never waited until the turn to raise this you won't be loosing much, and compared to the preflop and river those are much bigger mistakes right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit that this hand was crap, but normally my PF play is pretty good (according to my stats at least, VP$IP and PFR).

River was of course very bad, don't know what was wrong with me.

About the Flop and Turn. I got $1 + $4 out of him now. If I had raised the flop I would have got $2 + $2 out of him at max. Maybe he would have folded the turn.

So I don't think it is that bad. And it's a good way to confuse your opponents, by varying your play.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]


I admit that this hand was crap, but normally my PF play is pretty good (according to my stats at least, VP$IP and PFR).

<font color="#666666"> snip </font>

it's a good way to confuse your opponents, by varying your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone will tell you that there are tons of terrible players with great preflop numbers. I'm not saying that you are one, just pointing out that your pt stats don't mean that you made the right decision here.

Also, there was a good post in the HUSH faq that discussed mixing up your play. Basically it came to this:
1)online its usually not necessary since you won't play the same people over and over again, and
2)if you decide to mix it up anywa, use reads and position to be your guide. IOW, openraise 44 hu vs the megarock, and just limp the same hand when there are multiple calling stations in the hand instead.

In this instance, you should have raised. I'll go find the post because it is very good.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

I would have re-raised on the flop. With top pair top kicker increase the money in the pot. If everyone folds thats fine.

I would put SB on a top pair weaker kicker. I wouldn't worry about him having a straight draw. If he has bottom pair with four to the heart flush, say Q5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] then your 50/50.

I would have also bet the river. If he bet three clubs on after the flop and then beats you runner runner what can you do.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed a value bet on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Raise PF. Bet/Raise the flop. Bet the turn. Bet the river. Your heads up with TPTK.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop would probably have caused him to fold after my turn bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he would have probably folded PF. This is good because you have a drawing hand. If he calls, aggression is expected from you--you may make him fold with a bet or raise even if you don't make your hand.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

Raise PF
Raise that flop
Hand would have played differently from here on.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

g to the r to the u n c hizzle....

raise preflop, totally standard. against most vils raise any ace or pp here.

why arent you raising the flop? just out of interest? i raise here against most vils too, but if you have a good read then waiting for the turn could be more +ev

turn is good

when he pacifies on the turn you CANT not value bet that river, he doesnt have 2p enough times here to not bet.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]


I admit that this hand was crap, but normally my PF play is pretty good (according to my stats at least, VP$IP and PFR).



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to add that your stats from PT won't tell you if your PF play is good or not. It'll tell you if you play too many or too few hands, but that's not the same as good PF play.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

PREFLOP:
With a poster in the hand, especially one you have position on, you can raise preflop with even more hands than usual. I'd probably open raise any ace from the button with the poster adding some dead money.

FLOP:
Raising the flop would face SB with a 6:1 decision. He would have to fold two clubs or a gutshot or call incorrectly. You allowed him to correctly stay in with some hands you could have got him to fold or pay you off with.

Re: How\'s this? (ATo)
 

[ QUOTE ]

About the Flop and Turn. I got $1 + $4 out of him now. If I had raised the flop I would have got $2 + $2 out of him at max. Maybe he would have folded the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's rare you see reasoning this blatantly results oriented. In this case (a card fell that didn't help your opponent AND your opponent bet the turn AND your opponent called your raise) you ENDED UP winning 1 more SB than you would have by raising the flop. Independent of this, raising the flop is unquestionably the right play. All of those things aren't going to happen every time and they certainly aren't going to happen enough to make the 1 SB profit worth risking loosing the pot.