Why All The Details?
 

When I asked about the "In His Image" statement, Not Ready referred us to a website that went into lengthy intricate detail about the subject, describing all the various, Christian theories and what was right and wrong about them. But what is the point of all this? Because even devout Christians seem to agree that God will not be angry or punish you if you get these details wrong.

I said before that one problem with being religous is that it wastes time. Time that could be used for more productive things. That's been countered with the idea that earthly things don't matter as much as the afterlife. But even if you accept that, it doesn't apply once you have gotten the basics down. The things relevant to that afterlife. Spending inordinate time trying to figure out details that even God doesn't care if you know, sounds an awful lot like an excuse to escape any responsibility to improve the world. And you think God would applaud you for that?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

How does one improve the world? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Why All The Details?
 

Good question. For a different thread.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]

But what is the point of all this?


[/ QUOTE ]

What's the point of asking?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

I'd say it's pretty relevant to this thread because if you say I'm wasting my time, I think you should at least give me a hint as to what I could do that is not a waste of time. I promise I won't get into a big debate about it in this thread (maybe in another one, though) but for now I'd just like to know. Thanks.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I said before that one problem with being religious is that it wastes time. Time that could be used for more productive things. That's been countered with the idea that earthly things don't matter as much as the afterlife. But even if you accept that, it doesn't apply once you have gotten the basics down. The things relevant to that afterlife. Spending inordinate time trying to figure out details that even God doesn't care if you know, sounds an awful lot like an excuse to escape any responsibility to improve the world. And you think God would applaud you for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

Now we are (finally?) getting down to the nitty-gritty. This also appears to partially answer NotReady’s question “What is the point of asking?”

It seems that you are saying that “[to] improve the world” is one of your values, perhaps you main value. That is a good thing. In fact, I find it commendable. But, of course you understand that it is a subjective value.

So, this leads to the question, why do you find it of such value? Also, are we talking immediate concerns of the state of the world (and I include curing cancer for example) and/or long term goals for improving the world (here I include such things as - to protect the longevity of the human race)?

My point is not rhetorical. I am asking because I offer this challenge: If you can argue a case and convince me that there is a reason that one should care about the longevity of the human race* (e.g. my questions posed in another thread - why worry about the ozone, what difference does it make whether mankind becomes extinct like the dinosaurs?) I will give up my Religon. Yep, you heard me right. (N.b. I am not even qualifying my challenge. I am not even asking you to show that this value is better than the value I see in my Religion.)

Now, in order to convince me, you cannot attempt to show the folly of my Religion. This argument does not do what I ask (nor do I think you can argue a case to me anyway, in this manner – see my methodology of how I arrived at my convictions and what my convictions actually are - but, that is irrelevant).

I think my challenge to you says something about my convictions vis a vis the way I decide my Religion and the main source I use, as well as my skepticism regarding whether values such as yours should override (or even negate) my convictions.

RJT

*This argument, obviously and I assume wouldn’t anyway, cannot include arguments of what my God might want for example.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

I refuse to get into this debate. It has nothing to do with my question. Just forget about the part about improving the world in my original post. I just want to know why people waste their time on the details.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

I guess I reject what seems to be an implied premise of yours. Namely that I should only spend my time (or only my time allocated to "religion/ethics") improving the world. I would argue that although I have an ethical responsibility to act in a way that improves the world, it isnt all that I have to do. I can spend some time thinking about whatever trivial details I want to.

As it happens, I think this musing over trivia also helps me to amend my values and in the long run that increases my chances of "doing the right thing" next time I must make an ethical choice. I dont regard this outcome as the reason for pondering the details - merely an unintended outcome of my intellectual enjoyment with puzzling out obscure points of trivial logic.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

Why did you add in ethics? Why isn't anybody answering my simple question about learning debatable and unnecessary religious facts or doctrine?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why isn't anybody answering my simple question about learning debatable and unnecessary religious facts or doctrine?


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

There are no unnecessary Biblical doctrines.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I asked about the "In His Image" statement, Not Ready referred us to a website that went into lengthy intricate detail about the subject, describing all the various, Christian theories and what was right and wrong about them. But what is the point of all this? Because even devout Christians seem to agree that God will not be angry or punish you if you get these details wrong.

I said before that one problem with being religous is that it wastes time. Time that could be used for more productive things. That's been countered with the idea that earthly things don't matter as much as the afterlife. But even if you accept that, it doesn't apply once you have gotten the basics down. The things relevant to that afterlife. Spending inordinate time trying to figure out details that even God doesn't care if you know, sounds an awful lot like an excuse to escape any responsibility to improve the world. And you think God would applaud you for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post3647955

Re: Why All The Details?
 

"Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

There are no unnecessary Biblical doctrines."

So what happens to those who don't study the details or to those who do study but get it wrong (eg BluffTHIS).

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you add in ethics? Why isn't anybody answering my simple question about learning debatable and unnecessary religious facts or doctrine?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to state what I saw as an implied premise in your argument (obviously I got it wrong). I still answered your question - I enjoy religious debate in the first case (and that's enough reason for me to continue doing it). As an unintended side effect, I am also better at improving the world through my pondering on religious dogma.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]

So what happens to those who don't study the details or to those who do study but get it wrong (eg BluffTHIS).


[/ QUOTE ]

Salvation is by faith in Christ, not knowing the Bible by heart. God allots to each a measure of faith and ability. There is a huge amount of the Bible with which I only have a passing familiarity, but the longer I live the more I learn from it. Each is capable of a certain amount and God is just in judging.

The particular doctrine involved here, the image of God in man, is a very helpful study for Christians, as it identifies us to a certain extent, thus answering one of the most basic questions of the human soul. There are other uses as well.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

If I were still a Christian, I'd be ashamed that no Christian has given you a (perhaps the) good answer to your question.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

My answer is very simple and similar to bunny's and NotReady's, ie. I don't think those things are unnecessary or a waste of time. Of course I'm open-minded and willing to listen to reasons as to why they might be, but it looks like that's off topic.

As to what happens to believers who don't do those things, I don't know for sure but the key is what one feels in one's heart and not the specifics of what one does with one's time IMO.

BTW Sklansky makes a lousy God because the real God always answers my questions and doesn't behave as if He's too good for me, even though He of all beings surely could do that and nobody would question Him.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

A few things:

1. Just because God won't necessarily "punish" you if you get certain things wrong doesn't mean they don't matter. Also, just because an issue isn't central to salvation does not mean it's not important. Disobedience in issues unrelated to salvation could lead to punishment from God, even if that punishment is just the withholding of possible rewards. For example, failure to tithe probably won't send you to hell, but it could keep God from blessing your finances.

2. Many of these issues aren't important in and of themselves, but serve as building blocks for other issues and arguments. The "image of God" argument, for instance, becomes important for anyone arguing against evolution (you could say that this is just a further waste of time, and I'm sure any scientists in Kansas would agree).

Most of this stuff doesn't really seem like it matters, especially when people get bogged down by a single Scripture or something mentioned in passing. However, when these individual Scriptures become central in heated debates (e.g., those condemning homosexuality), their importance is clear. Personally, I think that when these things become that important, it only serves to prove the OP's point.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

David,

Ok, I hadn’t realized you were limiting your question to the “details” issue. I did just skim your post - my mistake to think you were asking the same question you had asked before in posts just now in a different format. This is a good question.

Many, perhaps even most, practicing believers don’t get into all the details. Those who want to know more and study the theology of it all, I think, will say it strengthens their faith. It also helps them to know God better. This is a very general answer. I will try to think about it some more tomorrow to maybe expand on it.

For now, let me use a few analogies. It is like poker - it is easy to learn, but hard to master. It is also like reading a great novel. One read is not enough to get the full appreciation of the text.

RJT

p.s. To respond to one of the remarks on this thread: I am fairly certain that if you studied the Religion, you would not convert. I am also fairly certain that having studied it, you would not see it as the distraction to geniuses doing their work the way you do now. Nor that geniuses cannot choose Religion after studying it.

I am at a disadvantage in giving my opinion to this, because I don’t hang with any geniuses. But, I do not really think that geniuses come to the conclusion that there is no God all that much. I think they are like Asimov and say they aren’t going to waste their time on the issue. If you can give some examples that this is not the case it would be helpful. The only real example I have is Bertrand Russell. And from what I remember of “Why I am not Christian” he really had no clue about Christianity. He may have been right about the Church at the time in the things he spoke of. But, the theology, I think he didn’t really study (or if he did, he got it wrong.) Tomorrow or the next few days, I will re-read some it and see if I can give you examples, if you are interested.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to get into this debate. It has nothing to do with my question. Just forget about the part about improving the world in my original post. I just want to know why people waste their time on the details.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you add in ethics? Why isn't anybody answering my simple question about learning debatable and unnecessary religious facts or doctrine?

[/ QUOTE ]

But see David, a lot of the reason for the "details" that are left after those pertaining to eternal salvation (the afterlife), has to do with our life on earth, which includes improving that life and the ethics of our relations with each other. And while that life is not as important as the afterlife of our immortal souls, it is important because it determines the state of our afterlife. The "details" tell us how we should live ethically, and also how to make this a better world for all (the subject matter of your African children threads).

Plus there is another simple reason for details. Since we view our beliefs on religion as truth, then that necessarily will often lead to further "details". Same as with mathematical and physical truths.

(P.S. I have to go attend to one of those "details" now by attending morning Mass. It's a holy day of obligation like Sunday, The Feast of All Saints.)

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, I do not really think that geniuses come to the conclusion that there is no God all that much. I think they are like Asimov and say they aren’t going to waste their time on the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty accurate I'd say. I'd like to note, though, that this position leans very strongly towards "no God" being most likely true, otherwise one would be more motivated to "waste his time" on the issue. I suppose there are some who take a sort of Deist slant on the position. I think this is a pretty useless distinction, though.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

"But see David, a lot of the reason for the "details" that are left after those pertaining to eternal salvation (the afterlife), has to do with our life on earth, which includes improving that life and the ethics of our relations with each other."

How can you not realize that I am not talking about those details.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

Sorry I have misunderstood. I'm on my way out now and will just say that if the details you mean are like how and exactly when the end days will unfold, or the minute details concerning angels and such, then I would agree with you. Those details even regarding the truth don't matter as far as salvation or living a christian life. If anything they can confuse them by providing needless grounds for controversy.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

"Sorry I have misunderstood. I'm on my way out now and will just say that if the details you mean are like how and exactly when the end days will unfold, or the minute details concerning angels and such, then I would agree with you. Those details even regarding the truth don't matter as far as salvation or living a christian life. If anything they can confuse them by providing needless grounds for controversy."

Anybody disagree with that?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

I disagree because if there is needless controversy, it is not because people spend time studying those details, but rather because they use them to create controversy when they probably shouldn't.

Even then I'm more inclined to believe the controversy is not needless at all, and the only fault committed by the detail guys is that they erroneously think the details are worth bringing up when there are more fundamental issues that need to be covered first.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...the real God always answers my questions and doesn't behave as if He's too good for me, even though He of all beings surely could do that and nobody would question Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

He must like you more than he did Job.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Sorry I have misunderstood. I'm on my way out now and will just say that if the details you mean are like how and exactly when the end days will unfold, or the minute details concerning angels and such, then I would agree with you. Those details even regarding the truth don't matter as far as salvation or living a christian life. If anything they can confuse them by providing needless grounds for controversy."

Anybody disagree with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I understand Bluffs post, I say I agree with it if it means the same as the following:

I am a novice to hold ‘em. One of the posts of yours that stuck in my mind after reading SSHE and TOP as a beginner is the following. You had written that we should understand that (using my words not yours) K5s is not verboten . One merely has to know what the heck one is doing, then one knows when/how one can apply K5s. Until you posted that it hadn’t occurred to me that it was an option. After reading it, that idea (not specifically K5s) but the overall point you were making was an eye opener for me. I made a jump in re-reading your books with a whole knew awareness.

To get more specific to Bluffs point. One can play K5s. But, if one chooses to never play K5s it is not the end of the world.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

I mean new awareness, not knew awareness. Too late to edit.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I asked about the "In His Image" statement, Not Ready referred us to a website that went into lengthy intricate detail about the subject, describing all the various, Christian theories and what was right and wrong about them. But what is the point of all this? Because even devout Christians seem to agree that God will not be angry or punish you if you get these details wrong.

I said before that one problem with being religous is that it wastes time. Time that could be used for more productive things. That's been countered with the idea that earthly things don't matter as much as the afterlife. But even if you accept that, it doesn't apply once you have gotten the basics down. The things relevant to that afterlife. Spending inordinate time trying to figure out details that even God doesn't care if you know, sounds an awful lot like an excuse to escape any responsibility to improve the world. And you think God would applaud you for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not following the details will cause you problems and/or heartache here on Earth. For instance, sex can cause pregnancy, STDs, bad feelings, psychological issues...etc. The fact that a lot of people don't follow the details does not mean that it's good for you to not follow them.

Also, God provides for more "treasure" (rewards) in heaven for the righteous man.

Simple answer: Following the rules leads to an easier life (though not guaranteed...e.g. Job) and leads to more treasure (rewards) in heaven (guaranteed). It also pleases God and, if you love God, you will desire to please him (at least to some degree).

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, sex can cause pregnancy, STDs, bad feelings, psychological issues...etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is some warped view about sex, dude. Maybe you ought to see someone about this, it can lead to very odd behaviour and deep rooted problems.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

It all depends, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] On what each person values. Some people value thinking about God. That's not to say, they don't value many other things, as well. Everyone has to balance their values (priorities) If earthly things don't matter, then we can assume earth is a testing ground. The more we learn here (where sins are constantly forgiven) the better off we will be in the afterlife (will sins still be forgiven then?)

"God will not be angry if you get the details wrong?" I would say he will more be leinient with you because you knew not. "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" Once you KNOW that what you are doing is wrong THEN it becomes a sin. Same with Adam and Eve. They didn't know anything about right and wrong, so they were ok.

It DOES apply after you have the basics. Yes you can be saved by believing in Jesus, but to live forever, you need to adopt a lot more into your personality as a whole, "to survive unto the end" (Jesus)

This would imply to me that even after death it's not going to be a piece of cake. Maybe the more we work on understanding God, and improving ourselves (and others) HERE, the easier it will be later? (AFTERLIFE)

David, how can you expect to find God by asking people? (who have never seen or met Him, and probably most, can't hear Him, except by little signs that could be called confirmation bias)
WHY NOT GO TO THE SOURCE?

Why are you relying on answers to your questions from (supposedly devout) Christians? Are there any nowadays?
(this implies doubt as to whether the veracity of their statements is worthy of your consideration.) If everyone has a different part of "the basics" and we are imperfect, the answers will be as varied as the number of persons responding to posts?

If there is a God, and He knew you were looking for Him, for the right reasons, and He saw potential in you, why wouldn't He rain down manna on your livingroom floor?
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Now that's a funny visual! lol. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

What is your point in even contemplating God? (I say that in a polite tone of voice.) If you don't believe, then it COULD be a waste of time. But in order to make the previous statement TRUE, we need to know your values, and prioritize them. So, what, to you, is getting put off, when you make these posts, that has a greater value, to you, than the time spent writing them? What are these 'more important things'?

Can't we find some way to help you balance your life so that there is time for 'more important things' AND the contemplation of God? Or maybe just put a little twist on it, and re-prioritze those things which you value? Then, by changing your values, you wouldn't feel, like you were being robbed (of your time) by God. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

lol (with a big dumb grin on my face) I gotta say, even though I'm busy with the Fam, and work, and a lot of other things, I really enjoy, reading these posts. Even the angry people are funny in their own way. Hopefully everyone will find what they're looking for....

What are you looking for, lol? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
... one problem with being religous is that it wastes time. Time that could be used for more productive things.

[/ QUOTE ]

All I have to say is Amen to that. Amen.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to get into this debate. It has nothing to do with my question. Just forget about the part about improving the world in my original post. I just want to know why people waste their time on the details.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's simply boring to wait for death doing nothing and it also makes them feel better, just like a placebo.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point is not rhetorical. I am asking because I offer this challenge: If you can argue a case and convince me that there is a reason that one should care about the longevity of the human race* (e.g. my questions posed in another thread - why worry about the ozone, what difference does it make whether mankind becomes extinct like the dinosaurs?) I will give up my Religon. Yep, you heard me right. (N.b. I am not even qualifying my challenge. I am not even asking you to show that this value is better than the value I see in my Religion.)


[/ QUOTE ]

RJT,

You keep missing the point - people are not concerned with the longevity of the human race but rather their own life and the life of their children. I personally think that the world would be a better place without humans. All we do is destroy other creatures and use up all of the earth's resources. However, I want to live as long as possible and I want the world to be clean, safe and beautiful for my children and grandchildren. What is so hard to understand?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is not rhetorical. I am asking because I offer this challenge: If you can argue a case and convince me that there is a reason that one should care about the longevity of the human race* (e.g. my questions posed in another thread - why worry about the ozone, what difference does it make whether mankind becomes extinct like the dinosaurs?) I will give up my Religon. Yep, you heard me right. (N.b. I am not even qualifying my challenge. I am not even asking you to show that this value is better than the value I see in my Religion.)


[/ QUOTE ]

RJT,

You keep missing the point - people are not concerned with the longevity of the human race but rather their own life and the life of their children. I personally think that the world would be a better place without humans. All we do is destroy other creatures and use up all of the earth's resources. However, I want to live as long as possible and I want the world to be clean, safe and beautiful for my children and grandchildren. What is so hard to understand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cab,

I am asking about the ozone and things of that nature - why care? It is going to be around until I am dead at least. I guess you answered that you are worried for your children and theirs. Well, I "got" none - any problem with me driving a Hummer? (I don't, btw, nor have any interest in doing so.)

RJT

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is not rhetorical. I am asking because I offer this challenge: If you can argue a case and convince me that there is a reason that one should care about the longevity of the human race* (e.g. my questions posed in another thread - why worry about the ozone, what difference does it make whether mankind becomes extinct like the dinosaurs?) I will give up my Religon. Yep, you heard me right. (N.b. I am not even qualifying my challenge. I am not even asking you to show that this value is better than the value I see in my Religion.)


[/ QUOTE ]

RJT,

You keep missing the point - people are not concerned with the longevity of the human race but rather their own life and the life of their children. I personally think that the world would be a better place without humans. All we do is destroy other creatures and use up all of the earth's resources. However, I want to live as long as possible and I want the world to be clean, safe and beautiful for my children and grandchildren. What is so hard to understand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cab,

I am asking about the ozone and things of that nature - why care? It is going to be around until I am dead at least. I guess you answered that you are worried for your children and theirs. Well, I "got" none - any problem with me driving a Hummer? (I don't, btw, nor have any interest in doing so.)

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a very common question from people that do not have any children. It is like a person that does not have any pets trying to understand how some people can care so much for their dogs or cats. You have to be in their shoes.

If all you care about is yourself then I guess I can't give you a good reason. It is easy to understand why if you do have children or do love others and care about their future. If you care about anyone else how could you not care about the ozone, etc? You imply that it will outlast you, but how much longer after that. What if science finds a way for you to live another hundred years - will it matter then?

Re: Why All The Details?
 

Cab,

My main interest is that if we are merely a product of evolution what difference does it make if the human race becomes extinct - why stress over such things as the Ozone? Live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse. I'll pass on the 100 year pill - now the fountain of youth is another story. (Can it be retroactive?)

RJT

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cab,

My main interest is that if we are merely a product of evolution what difference does it make if the human race becomes extinct - why stress over such things as the Ozone? Live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse. I'll pass on the 100 year pill - now the fountain of youth is another story. (Can it be retroactive?)

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

You always seem to get back to this point in most of your posts. It does NOT matter in the Universal scheme of things but it DOES matter in my personal scheme of things. Just like there is no meaning to life in a general sense but there is meaning to me of my own life and the life of others that I care about. There is a distinction.

Re: Why All The Details?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is not rhetorical. I am asking because I offer this challenge: If you can argue a case and convince me that there is a reason that one should care about the longevity of the human race* (e.g. my questions posed in another thread - why worry about the ozone, what difference does it make whether mankind becomes extinct like the dinosaurs?) I will give up my Religon. Yep, you heard me right. (N.b. I am not even qualifying my challenge. I am not even asking you to show that this value is better than the value I see in my Religion.)


[/ QUOTE ]

RJT,

You keep missing the point - people are not concerned with the longevity of the human race but rather their own life and the life of their children. I personally think that the world would be a better place without humans. All we do is destroy other creatures and use up all of the earth's resources. However, I want to live as long as possible and I want the world to be clean, safe and beautiful for my children and grandchildren. What is so hard to understand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not all people, I want the rest of humanity to prosper as well. I just don't want that as much as I want myself and my familly to prosper.

chez

Re: Why All The Details?
 

The reason one ought to study the details is because the details lead to more meditation on God which in turn leads to more sanctifying grace. The more sanctifying grace one has, the more pleasure they will have in heaven.

If one does only what is absolutely necessary to be saved, they will not gain much merit, and hence have less pleasure in heaven.

If the underlying religion is false, then most of that study is a waste of time. But if the religion is true, then many of the things we do on earth are a waste of time (depending on the values of the religion).

Re: Why All The Details?
 

"If one does only what is absolutely necessary to be saved, they will not gain much merit, and hence have less pleasure in heaven"

What I like about this guy is that he answers my questions head on instead of posting vague replies. On the other hand I have never read anything like the quoted sentence before. Which, if any, Christian religions offically believe it?