Q9o on button
 

This is a live 10/20 game, at a yet to be shutdown NYC card club

Right now its 6 handed, but no one here really adjusts so I post here instead of HUSH.

UTG, UTG+1, CO limp, I limp OTB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], both blinds call.

6 to the flop for 6 sbs: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Lagy BB bets, all call, I call (?), sb folds.

The flop play is pretty much what I'm wondering about.

Re: Q9o on button
 

I can dig,but, two questions: 1. PF, huh? suited yes, but I dunno about off suit.

2. what is the likelyhood that they are gonna call a lot on the turn too. Cause if they are, then I might rather raise the flop and get some value in right now since there are a lot of bad cards to hit on the turn

Re: Q9o on button
 

hmmmmmmmmm, i don't like the preflop call but you wanted flop advice so nevermind. I think I call here and take a look at the turn. If it comes an Ace or something like that I think its a check/fold, or in this case just fold. But If it is a safe card like a non spade 7 I think you can pop it on the turn. Lets just hope a Q of non spade comes [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]!!!!!

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. PF, huh? suited yes, but I dunno about off suit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a lil loose for sure, but thesze guys are really donkish and in position I can't see folding this for one bet. SB won't raise without AA or KK, BB will raise maybe 20% of his hands.

As for the flop play, I called b/c of the number of bad cards that could hit on the turn, but now I'm thinking maybe I overestimated. I figured my equity wasn't that big on the flop, and no one was folding. But I think I might be wrong.

Re: Q9o on button
 

When explaining why you played a hand like Q9o, you should typically begin by saying, "Now assume I flop quads . . ."

Re: Q9o on button
 

I raise the flop. the players you describe seem like "check to the raiser" type so raising allows you to take control of the hand and get the extra SB's in with what is probably the best hand. LAG BB betting out could be a draw/overs/weaker 9. Waiting for the turn to raise is a option but if a rag hits and BB bets you may lose the players in between.

Re: Q9o on button
 

I like raising if there is a reasonable chance it will get me the button on the turn. Combine that with what will BB do(3-bet to face others with 2 cold)and have them(some) actually fold. Then I may like it even more. Even if it doesn't work as described I think it is a value raise often considering who lead.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising if there is a reasonable chance it will get me the button on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure he's going to have the button on every street.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like raising if there is a reasonable chance it will get me the button on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure he's going to have the button on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wise guy eh. Let me rephrase. If there is a chance it will be checked to you on the turn if you raise the flop. Given opportunity to take control of the hand, etc. etc.

Better Joker [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Combine that with what will BB do(3-bet to face others with 2 cold)and have them(some) actually fold. Then I may like it even more.

[/ QUOTE ]

A large majority of the time, BB won't 3 bet a hand I'm ahead of.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Combine that with what will BB do(3-bet to face others with 2 cold)and have them(some) actually fold. Then I may like it even more.

[/ QUOTE ]

A large majority of the time, BB won't 3 bet a hand I'm ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah meant to mention that in my post also (IE: does he only three bet hands that have you beat). That may not be a bad thing though. You know where you then stand and decide if you have odds to draw.

EDIT: BTW. Had a question for you after reading initial post and tried to PM you but box must be full it wouldn't go through.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: BTW. Had a question for you after reading initial post and tried to PM you but box must be full it wouldn't go through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just indiscriminately deleted every one of them. PM away...

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for the flop play, I called b/c of the number of bad cards that could hit on the turn, but now I'm thinking maybe I overestimated. I figured my equity wasn't that big on the flop, and no one was folding. But I think I might be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, of course noone is folding, but I think that you have to put in value right now, as it may get someone to fold on the turn(edit: as in, someone that might peel until the river with overcards in most situations). you can also check any god awful turn that may come. you're equity probably isn't massive, but, I do think that its enough to push(haven't run pokerstove, and it'd be really hard to put any of the idiots that you were playing with on any real hand range)

Re: Q9o on button
 

Thus far I've only read KDawg's post, and I like the point about raising immediately if the turn raise won't protect at all. But, I was thinking raise a safe turn because I doubt anyone is folding here. While there is value in raise, isn't this a spot where we sacrifice an equity edge for a greater edge on turn?

Edit: Read the whole thread now and I think this hand sucks. I might raise hoping that I can take over hand, but I don't think there is much value in this unless people will fold turn. Right now, you have to dodge a lot of bullets for your hand to hold up IMO.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't this a spot where we sacrifice an equity edge for a greater edge on turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I played it this way. But am I right?

Re: Q9o on button
 

This is interesting Brett...

I think I tend to prefer a raise on the flop here:

From what I remember about this game, play gets much more passive and tighter on the big bet streets, and this is particularly pronounced among some of the more aggressive early street players. Hence, I fear a couple of things:

a. You don't get bet into on the turn; hence, missing the flop bets is probably just forgoing value.

b. A lot of players simply will fold the turn pretty much automatically (many players just take off the flop automatically but auto-fold the turn unless they hit).

My basic point is that I think a lot of players in this type of game play so much worse on the flop that you are considerably more likely to get bad calls on a flop raise than you are to get on a turn bet/raise. The "wait until the turn" idea seems better suited to situations where you figure that either your opponents will generally only be getting to the turn with decent hands OR are likely to make bad calls on both the flop and the turn. (Namely, if we think their flop and turn calls will both be generally okay, it's better to wait until the turn because their turn calls will generally be more beneficial to us from a value perspective. If we think their flop and turn calls will both be generally bad, then it's better to wait until the turn because their turn calls will generally be even worse than their flop calls. But when they're likely to make mistakes on one street and not the other, it's obviously better to encourage the mistakes where they'll come).

Just a thought...

How's that game treating you? I had some really fantastic success in it over the summer and am missing it fondly...

Re: Q9o on button
 

Hey Will,

This is a different game than the one you played in, different venue (yours is closed til the tide turns), different players, but, well, same game.

I think your analyisis was spot on. These suckers tend to get girly on the big streets, and they all checked to me. (A funny moment occured when the CO pointed at the dealer on the turn (6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) after everyone had checked to him, the dealer burned a card, and, I sort of yelped, "I didn't say anything that even remotely sounds like "check." Then I bet. (Yes, over 99% of my poker experience is online and I perhaps could have been more discreet.)

But, yeah, in retrospect, I missed some bets here. I don't want to be results oriented but getting girly on the turn is more of an epidemic than an incident and I should have just raised the stinking flop.

RE: bigger mistake on the turn, really, I don't know. Part of me thinks that the bigger the pot is on the turn the more likely it is that more people are peeking at the river. As is, when I bet the turn, 3 called to see the river anyway. I make this play a lot with like 88 or soemthing when a raise will shut out no one and I'm in position against a good sized field. Here though, I think 9's might be much better than 8's and, and I think this is important, I'm also holding an overcard (I'm not counting on improving of course, but its not outside of the realm of possibilities.) If I had A9, even K9, I'd raise the flop in a flash. If I held say, 77 or 88, maybe even TT, then perhaps waiting til the turn would be a better play.

How bout pre-flop? I think its maybe almost close, and prob doesn't much matter. Raising doesn't much appeal to me, but calling or folding seems to me fine. Its 6 handed, after all, and I"m playing with who I'm playing with....

Re: Q9o on button
 

Eh just raise.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh just raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, I was thinking raise a safe turn because I doubt anyone is folding here. While there is value in raise, isn't this a spot where we sacrifice an equity edge for a greater edge on turn?



[/ QUOTE ]


the thing is, there are very few cards on the turn that are gonna be safe for us to push our edge then. The whole situation kinda sucks no matter which way you look at it

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, there are very few cards on the turn that are gonna be safe for us to push our edge then. The whole situation kinda sucks no matter which way you look at it

[/ QUOTE ]

Safe is relative. The only cards I'm super scared of are aces and kings.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
isn't this a spot where we sacrifice an equity edge for a greater edge on turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I played it this way. But am I right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise for value! This is not a good time to sacrifice your equity edge on the flop, you are missing valuable bets. Your opponents are calling with any overcards, many will fold the turn... some will wait to the river with Axo high but will fold to a turn raise. They are weak and passive, get your raise in now.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
How bout pre-flop? I think its maybe almost close, and prob doesn't much matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO it's close with one less limper. You're in a different situation than me, but I don't trust my postflop skills enough to extract value with this hand in a field this big.

Re: Q9o on button
 

I like the call because I think it's better not to bloat this pot with a rather vulnerable pair when raising is only likely to knock out one player at most.

See what comes on the turn.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
if a rag hits and BB bets you may lose the players in between.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to lose as many players as possible from this hand and would gladly settle for a 10 BBish pot with a pair of nines, decent kicker.

If Hero raises the flop, SB folds and everyone else calls, there will be 8.5 BB in the pot on the turn. If a blank comes and everyone checks to Hero and he bets, anyone with a gutshot or better is being offered 9.5:1 to take a look at the river. Without the flop raise, they would be getting only 7:1. At least you might be able to get gutshots to fold.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a live 10/20 game, at a yet to be shutdown NYC card club

Right now its 6 handed, but no one here really adjusts so I post here instead of HUSH.

UTG, UTG+1, CO limp, I limp OTB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], both blinds call.

6 to the flop for 6 sbs: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Lagy BB bets, all call, I call (?), sb folds.

The flop play is pretty much what I'm wondering about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read all the other posts, so someone may have already pointed all this out...

6 handed, with a bunch of limpers in front, I'm raising with Q9o if I plan on playing it at all. Whether I play it depends on the table read I have.

As for the flop, the pot is getting big and will get bigger quickly. This round is the only chance I can see to push out over cards, so I raise the flop. Anyone with a flush draw is in to the river no matter how you play it, so you might as well get more money into the pot while you are ahead. Just calling here leaves too many possibilities out against you, and doesn't have the effect of managing pot odds against a flush draw, which would be the only reason I could see in smooth calling here.

Re: Q9o on button
 

fwiw i like your preflop limp from what i can gleam about the makeup of the crowd.

Re: Q9o on button
 

that's half the reason to wait for the turn. but the second half is some possibility of protecting your hand. since you know they're passive turn players, and you don't have position to protect your hand, there's not much of a chance to protect your hand here... raise for value.

Re: Q9o on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
6 handed, with a bunch of limpers in front, I'm raising with Q9o if I plan on playing it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me no likey.