Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

I probably have the best hand on the flop, normally I just bet or raise when I think I'm ahead. But in this case I'm also very vulnerable on the turn and river. Would the correct play be to smooth call the flop and raise the turn if a blank ( <=8) falls?

Given the way I played it, is the turn bet ok?
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

Would you fold to any over on the turn then? Or just an A? etc.

I like your original line

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

I dont like waiting here, raise the flop

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

The pot is on the small side. You have the ability to offer terrible odds to MP, and even unfavorable ones to SB. There is no one trapped between you and SB. Raise it up now.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably have the best hand on the flop, normally I just bet or raise when I think I'm ahead. But in this case I'm also very vulnerable on the turn and river. Would the correct play be to smooth call the flop and raise the turn if a blank

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FLOP: For the very reason you state, I like an immediate raise to blow MP2 off any overcards or punish him for staying in with a hand like top pair and a gutshot. Punish the bettor SB right now also.

Just calling would offer MP 6:1 which lets him stay in with any pair also and gives him chances to make two pair or a set. Raise looks mandatory to me.

RIVER: I check with the four to a straight that just came in. You got calls, but I don't know why both those guys called you unless they had you beat. I would expect a fold or raise reply and to usually get little value from a river bet.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

you really need to raise this preflop

and raise the flop, the way you did play it

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

I like the raise a lot. You probably have the best hand and as stated you need to push out or at least punish overcards.

I am wondering if anyone can make a case for raising preflop here just out of curiousity. It's more of a question for my play. Obviously it depends a lot on who is left to act, but assuming regular poor to average players behind you, would anyone raise? Is this too aggressive?

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I am wondering if anyone can make a case for raising preflop here just out of curiousity. It's more of a question for my play. Obviously it depends a lot on who is left to act, but assuming regular poor to average players behind you, would anyone raise? Is this too aggressive?



[/ QUOTE ]

its a fairly standard raise

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I probably have the best hand on the flop, normally I just bet or raise when I think I'm ahead. But in this case I'm also very vulnerable on the turn and river. Would the correct play be to smooth call the flop and raise the turn if a blank

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FLOP: For the very reason you state, I like an immediate raise to blow MP2 off any overcards or punish him for staying in with a hand like top pair and a gutshot. Punish the bettor SB right now also.

Just calling would offer MP 6:1 which lets him stay in with any pair also and gives him chances to make two pair or a set. Raise looks mandatory to me.

RIVER: I check with the four to a straight that just came in. You got calls, but I don't know why both those guys called you unless they had you beat. I would expect a fold or raise reply and to usually get little value from a river bet.

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I'd much rather bet-fold the river. You get called by any 6 and possibly any made pair on the flop plus occasionally small pocket pairs which won't bet the river with the four-straight on the board.

Flop raise is standard.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would´nt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ see´s the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 =&gt; 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i did´nt write...

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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Would the correct play be to smooth call the flop and raise the turn if a blank ( &lt;=8) falls

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Any card &lt; 8 is actually not a good thing to see given this flop texture especially with both blinds in.

Betting the flop is good. Raising pre-flop to open and betting the flop is better. With the SB donking here, the raise is good as it puts pressure on MP2 to get rid of overcards.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

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Would´nt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ see´s the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 =&gt; 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i did´nt write...

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In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would´nt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ see´s the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 =&gt; 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i did´nt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

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The positional factor seems quite valueable here. It´s quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. Doesn´t seem that way, but i´ll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would´nt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ see´s the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 =&gt; 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i did´nt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

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The positional factor seems quite valueable here. It´s quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. Doesn´t seem that way, but i´ll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.

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I think the biggest factor here is that you are probably ahead now, but your hand is extremely vulnerable. Also, there are 30+ scare cards for the turn (9-A, 4, 5). Even if you are ahead if one of these cards falls, what are you going to do with 2 people behind you? Check Call the turn and the river? Bet and fold to a raise? Just try and win the pot now.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would´nt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ see´s the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 =&gt; 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i did´nt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The positional factor seems quite valueable here. It´s quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. Doesn´t seem that way, but i´ll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.

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I think the biggest factor here is that you are probably ahead now, but your hand is extremely vulnerable. Also, there are 30+ scare cards for the turn (9-A, 4, 5). Even if you are ahead if one of these cards falls, what are you going to do with 2 people behind you? Check Call the turn and the river? Bet and fold to a raise? Just try and win the pot now.

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Point taken. I agree.

Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair
 

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Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8, 8.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6, 2, 3 (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 4 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.


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Thanks for all your input. The reason for this post was a section in SSHE, "Two overpair hands" which claims to give up a small edge on the flop in order to benefit from a much larger edge on the turn (if none of the 30+ cards that could hurt my holding fell).
SB held Q3o for a flopped bottom pair and MP2 Q5o for the rivered straight. My biggest error in this hand was definetly to bet the river when there was four to a straight on the board. MP2's play is really terrible. First he didn't have the odds to call the flop after my raise, and second he didn't raise that river.