HU Question
 

You're playing someone HU in a SBB game and the opponent isn't totally clueless. Should you be open folding to him some pct of the time when he raises PF and you call in the BB and then flop air? What effect do you think this can have on your opponent? Is it worthwhile to pursue?

Re: HU Question
 

Maybe, if you like free cards more than check-raises.

Re: HU Question
 

I'm not sure of the terminology here. If by open-folding you mean folding on the flop, then yes.
It's always good to mix things up when playing HU, and there's no shame to admitting you have AIR by folding sometimes. After all, he won't know this until after he bets, so you really aren't giving out much info.

If open-folding means surrendering preflop with no action, then yes to that too. If your opponent pays attention, this will result in more liberal raises from him. Your play to combat that is to loosen your slow play standards for bigger hands and loosen your bluff standards on later streets.

Re: HU Question
 

By open-folding he means folding on the flop when he has the option to check. The point would be to induce your opponent to give a free card. I don't play much HU, but I think you give more information than you gain in deception.

Re: HU Question
 

This would seem to indicate to the opponent that when you check, you've got something more often worth getting involved.

For instance, say you fold 30% of the time at some random board when he bets to you but you open fold any significant percentage of time within that 30%, and you have another action the other 70% of the time c/r, c/c, what have you.

That would indicate to me that when you don't open fold, it's more heavily leaning towards you getting involved in the pot even if often you're going to be folding to his flop bet.

Getting the free card might make it worth it because it more clearly defines his hand as weak. At the same time, his flop bet when you check also more clearly defines his hand as strong(er).

Re: HU Question
 

haha seems like a cool image-enhancing trick at no cost. good one!

Re: HU Question
 

The problem is, you're giving the opponent correct information. If you only open-fold air, your opponent will know you have a strogner range when you check. The information you gain from your oppoenent is a distorted reflection of the information you give to him by open-folding x% of the time. HE should obtain a more accurate definition of your range than you of his, and he'll be in position to boot.

Re: HU Question
 

OK, I understand now.

Being the opponent....
If someone is willing to open-fold like that, I'm more than happy to let him. I think it's a mistake as I would be checking some flops behind with air in order to disguise my monsters.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're playing someone HU in a SBB game and the opponent isn't totally clueless. Should you be open folding to him some pct of the time when he raises PF and you call in the BB and then flop air? What effect do you think this can have on your opponent? Is it worthwhile to pursue?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did the standard check/bet options get too boring for you?

Re: HU Question
 

I think this is a fabulous idea. Your checks would certainly indicate some nonzero amount of strength because of this.

I had a related brainstorm a couple of days ago. Let's say you are heads up our of position after raising preflop against an opponent who will almost never fold the flop in a spot like this. If you wait a few seconds and then check, if he instabet then you would know that he had the bet/raise button checked, right? A pause of any kind would tell you that he wasn't going to raise the flop had you bet.

All of this is assuming that he uses the autobuttons ahead of time of course, which in a fast HU game is probably the case, right?

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: HU Question
 

I routinely use the auto-bet button that bets if checked to, but does nothing if bet into. I never use the auto bet/raise button.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I routinely use the auto-bet button that bets if checked to, but does nothing if bet into. I never use the auto bet/raise button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am always afraid to use the button that bets if checked to because if while I'm clicking it someone else bets it turns into the raise button and I accidentally raise! Do you have any advice on how to avoid this?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: HU Question
 

Get a high speed connection!!

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]


I am always afraid to use the button that bets if checked to because if while I'm clicking it someone else bets it turns into the raise button and I accidentally raise! Do you have any advice on how to avoid this?



[/ QUOTE ]

Play on Stars where they cleverly designed this button to be located just above the raise button, so this situation never happens. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Party's software team didn't foresee this, so there's no good solution there.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Get a high speed connection!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have one, but I don't think the connection is the problem. I think it is the speed of my finger and or my brain. This happens when someone else bets while I'm clicking my mouse and by the time I complete the click the button has turned into a raise button. Not using this button isn't a big deal, really, but it would get me a few more hands per hour I think because after raising preflop I wouldn't have to wait on the action to get to me to autobet when I wanted to.
Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, you're giving the opponent correct information.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly need to be able to utilize the bluff openfold for this strategy to have value.

Re: HU Question
 

Yes.

Click on the highest part of the bet button. This way if it changes to raise, your mouse will be slightly above the raise button and if you click late, you'll whiff.

Re: HU Question
 

If you have taken a couple of beats, it may look like you are tilting, so you probably get more action, but less folding equity, so if you allready doesn´t have much of that with the guy, then it may be worth trying.

Re: HU Question
 

i like the idea of doing it after youve lost a big pot to him or a few good pots in a row. hell probably think you just went on tilt. its a good image ploy but in game sense i think its clearly -ev. you want free cards when you check, but hes only giving them to you because he knows the value of your hand is greater than a normal flop check. thats certainly not a good thing.

Re: HU Question
 

FWIW Diablo did this like 5 times in about 80 hands of HU vs me this morning.

HU Question #2
 

You're playing someone HU in a SBB game and the opponent isn't totally clueless. Should you be checking the flop some pct of the time when he raises PF and you 3-bet in the BB? What effect do you think this can have on your opponent? Is it worthwhile to pursue? How does this change the game if you're doing it about 50% of the time you 3 bet from the BB?

Re: HU Question
 

I'v never seen the term "SBB game" before. Is it "small blind on the button"?

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'v never seen the term "SBB game" before. Is it "small blind on the button"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. I stated it since not everyone knows in HU matches this is the normal way (esp those who have only played HU on Party and are relatively new to poker).

Re: HU Question
 

I don't think it's a good idea. Any extra information you give is bad. As long as your opponent doesn't think you're a retard, he will realize what you are doing. It might confuse him a little, but ultimately, it won't give you an advantage.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I am always afraid to use the button that bets if checked to because if while I'm clicking it someone else bets it turns into the raise button and I accidentally raise! Do you have any advice on how to avoid this?



[/ QUOTE ]

Play on Stars where they cleverly designed this button to be located just above the raise button, so this situation never happens. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Party's software team foresaw this and figured it was ok with them if you raised more often so you could misclick somebody a mercedes in extra rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: HU Question
 

Seems like it would put your opponent completely off balance.

Re: HU Question
 

It would seem to me that the more clueless your opponent is, the less effective this would be.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would seem to me that the more clueless your opponent is, the less effective this would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its exactly the opposite. clueless opponents might not know how to change their frequencies of flop bets when you open fold sometimes. they might see you open fold 1 out of 15 hands and have that effect the way they value your flop checks more so than appropriate.

if you openfold 1 out of 15 times when you could check, the bad player might add more credibility to the value of your checks when a good player would realize openfolding 1 out of 15 times effects the value or your checks very little.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would seem to me that the more clueless your opponent is, the less effective this would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its exactly the opposite. clueless opponents might not know how to change their frequencies of flop bets when you open fold sometimes. they might see you open fold 1 out of 15 hands and have that effect the way they value your flop checks more so than appropriate.

if you openfold 1 out of 15 times when you could check, the bad player might add more credibility to the value of your checks when a good player would realize openfolding 1 out of 15 times effects the value or your checks very little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this falls into the class of plays that doesn't work on retards or solid thinking players, but works well on the medicore thinking players who will overadjust...they talk about a play or two like that in (maybe) SSH, I think.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any other suggestions?[\quote]

What I do is hold the mouse down for half a second or so before I let go. This way if it changes right before you click, you have time to move it away. Also, if it changes after the mouse button is held down, and you let go, it doesn't count as a click on the raise button.

Re: HU Question
 

If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge, as the other will adjust accordingly.

Against a retard, it won't work, because they will not pay attention.

I think this move is best suited if you're playing against paranoid schizophrenics. Your open-folding 2% of the time, will make them think that 75% of the time you check the flop, you will raise if they bet.

If you're an orderly in a mental institution, this could be gold.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you're an orderly in a mental institution, this could be gold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Classic.

Actually, it's easier to make this play live. You can stare your opponent down before folding and drive him NUTS.

Online, it's a pain in the ass. Not only do you gain next to nothing, but you have to click YES to "Checking is free, are you sure you want to fold?" every friggin time.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Sounds like the open-folder probably needs to be three times the player as his opponent to win the match.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Sounds like the open-folder probably needs to be three times the player as his opponent to win the match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Sounds like the open-folder probably needs to be three times the player as his opponent to win the match.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Sounds like the open-folder probably needs to be three times the player as his opponent to win the match.

[/ QUOTE ]

not beautiful, kind of silly actually. imo, admiralfluff is entirely right. i dont understand why you mock him by using some random 3x figure and i dont understand why everyone supports you for that.

Re: HU Question
 

Hmmm. You or I am misintrepreting El D's post (and I'm pretty sure it is you).

I took his post as clever comment on the relative skill of the two players involved in the HU match, which were, coincidentally, Schneids and El Diablo.

Re: HU Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are two evenly matched expert players, the one who does not open fold will have an edge

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Sounds like the open-folder probably needs to be three times the player as his opponent to win the match.

[/ QUOTE ]

not beautiful, kind of silly actually. imo, admiralfluff is entirely right. i dont understand why you mock him by using some random 3x figure and i dont understand why everyone supports you for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I am not mocking him. I agree w/ him completely and believe the non-open-folder has as large as a 3:1 edge. It would be near-impossible for the open-folder to come out on top in this match unless he is many times better than his opponent.

Re: HU Question
 

sorry for misunderstanding you then, but i am still confused.

why do you say he needs to be 3 times the opponent to win the match? i dont understand how you arrived at that number and so it seemed like sarcasm to me. openfolding only gives you a small disadvantage in the match, but a disadvantage nonetheless. the magnitude of the disadvantage is of course entirely dependant on how often you openfold. why 3:1?

Re: HU Question
 

Just an estimate, man. Might be a little off.