interesting turn card
 

also from last night's super (150+12). villain had just moved to the table a few hands ago.

***** Hand History for Game 2941297210 *****
30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16929395) - Thu Oct 27 21:54:51 EDT 2005
Table Super Thursday(498013) Table 19 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: krames44 (1877)
Seat 2: markhomer1 (455)
Seat 3: CalmBomber (810)
Seat 4: Danival (1400)
Seat 5: toPnOeviLi (590)
Seat 6: mahalkita1 (6071)
Seat 7: HERO (925)
Seat 8: bigbangs111 (1140)
Seat 9: sokio (1110)
Seat 10: Licker_Poker (260)
CalmBomber posts small blind (15)
Danival posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ah, Kc ]
toPnOeviLi folds.
mahalkita1 folds.
HERO raises (90) to 90
bigbangs111 folds.
sokio folds.
Licker_Poker folds.
krames44 folds.
markhomer1 folds.
CalmBomber folds.
Danival calls (60)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 2s, 2h ]
Danival checks.
HERO bets (120)
Danival calls (120)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ] (pot is 435, i have 715)
Danival checks.
HERO ?

Re: interesting turn card
 

I think Hero has to bet here. I put in ~210ish. It's early in the super and I've seen a lot of players make this flop call with just 2 overs and maybe the a high [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I'm honestly not sure what my plan would be if villian raised my bet here without reads. I tend to worry about flushes a little less when the flop is heads up (although I don't completely discount them) so I might even be tempted to possibly go broke here as I could see villian popping you with a hand like KQ or KJ, especially if they had a loose [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for their kicker.

While the turn card is certainly interesting, I really have to assume the only real question here is how much to bet, not if you should bet, as checking here I think would be a crime.

-Rizen

Re: interesting turn card
 

Push all in representing the K and hope they don’t believe you. The pots big enough for me to have now, and if they want to draw to trips with the last card they are welcome.

Re: interesting turn card
 

I think you missed the fact that their are 3 suited cards on the board. Not worried about villain having the flush since I'm getting all my chips in regardless. I'm more concerned with scaring him off with suited cards on the board. I raise the same as the flop or maybe as high as 180 and put the rest in on the river.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
Push all in representing the K and hope they don’t believe you. The pots big enough for me to have now, and if they want to draw to trips with the last card they are welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what hand do you want villain to call with?

Re: interesting turn card
 

1/2 pot bet is tempting but I'm worried that he just smooth calls. Of course if I bet pot, and he pushes, I'm a bit committed-ish. 3/4 pot?! Try to thin his odds a little.

Re: interesting turn card
 

I actually have no problems checking this here.

There's the possiblity that villian has a medium pair and figured it was good on that flop. He may have been on the flush draw and now is slow playing it. He may have taken one off with two over cards.

The advantages of checking are that you can get to a cheap showdown on the river. I check the turn and plan to call most bets he makes on the river. You may get a worse hand to bluff as they may think the king scared you instead of helped you. A hand like 88 may bet thinking you have AQ or a worse K will most likely bet here. If he does have the flush you're not going to go broke here.

The disadvantges to checking this turn are if he has a mid pair with a spade and a fourth spade hits the river. You get away easily though if a fourth spade hits and he bets though. Also he may hit a two outer if he does have a mid pocket pair.

If a blank hits the river and he checks I will value bet my kings since he may think I have AQ and am taking another stab and call with a worse hand. If he reraises I will seriously consider folding it.

Re: interesting turn card
 

i push

- your probably ahead and id rather eliminate any stragglers as the spade draw is very worrisome
- the all in can be viewed as a bluff and may be called with a draw/lesser hand. for the right price i'll take the risk that one of the 9 spades (assuming he has only one) doesnt hit the river

if he's slow playing a flush already - i go to bed

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
i push

- your probably ahead and id rather eliminate any stragglers as the spade draw is very worrisome
- the all in can be viewed as a bluff and may be called with a draw/lesser hand. for the right price i'll take the risk that one of the 9 spades (assuming he has only one) doesnt hit the river

if he's slow playing a flush already - i go to bed

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate pushing here. Yes you pick up the pot right now if you're winning but otherwise you're out. Why not value bet and make him pay to draw to the flush? As long as you're giving him incorrect odds it's mistake for him to call.

I really think pushing is the worst move here.

Re: interesting turn card
 

misread your chip count as 435 instead of the pot size being 435. still bet out 120, same as flop.

Re: interesting turn card
 

My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

So if we take this as our point of departure, what is the play? I like a check behind here. A river spade could be bad, but I'm willing to take my chances.

The problem with betting is that when you bet into a flushing board, people get nervous, and I don't want him dumping KQ or 99.

Check and call a river bet unless a fourth spade falls - its the only way you are going to get more money from worse hands, and it keeps the pot small if he's got you beat.

Re: interesting turn card
 

villain is first to act after river. just say a spade does not fall on river and you checked turn (to him indicating weakeness). What are you going to do if he pushes (say with his KQ)? no longer looks like we are keeping the pot small (and even if he was on a donkey draw say A 5), he more than likely has now effectively pushed you off of your hand. I think the correct play here is a continuation bet at the turn.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be true in general, but here the board is so dry other than the flush draw. villain will usually c/r with a hand like 77. the only check/calling hands are A2, a flush draw, maybe A4/54, or air/overcards. i think the odds are good that villain now has a flush, and i don't want to be moved off my 4-outer. and i don't want to go broke if he does have it.

but the rest of your post hits why i checked behind pretty well.

Re: interesting turn card
 

i checked. call this bet?

***** Hand History for Game 2941297210 *****
30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16929395) - Thu Oct 27 21:54:51 EDT 2005
Table Super Thursday(498013) Table 19 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: krames44 (1877)
Seat 2: markhomer1 (455)
Seat 3: CalmBomber (810)
Seat 4: Danival (1400)
Seat 5: toPnOeviLi (590)
Seat 6: mahalkita1 (6071)
Seat 7: HERO (925)
Seat 8: bigbangs111 (1140)
Seat 9: sokio (1110)
Seat 10: Licker_Poker (260)
CalmBomber posts small blind (15)
Danival posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ah, Kc ]
toPnOeviLi folds.
mahalkita1 folds.
HERO raises (90) to 90
bigbangs111 folds.
sokio folds.
Licker_Poker folds.
krames44 folds.
markhomer1 folds.
CalmBomber folds.
Danival calls (60)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 2s, 2h ]
Danival checks.
HERO bets (120)
Danival calls (120)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]
Danival checks.
HERO checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 4d ] pot 435, my stack 715
Danival bets (400)
HERO?

Re: interesting turn card
 

I hate the 4, but I think I'm calling here. He could have unimproved overcards, KQ, KJ, KT or a mid pair quite a lot, and he's likely betting most rivers after you check the turn behind.

Plus if he's read HoH, he knows that a bet of more than half your stack is likely to induce a fold, so if he wanted a call, he should bet 250-300. I doubt he has, but just to toss that in.

Re: interesting turn card
 

think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually have no problems checking this here.

There's the possiblity that villian has a medium pair and figured it was good on that flop. He may have been on the flush draw and now is slow playing it. He may have taken one off with two over cards.

The advantages of checking are that you can get to a cheap showdown on the river. I check the turn and plan to call most bets he makes on the river. You may get a worse hand to bluff as they may think the king scared you instead of helped you. A hand like 88 may bet thinking you have AQ or a worse K will most likely bet here. If he does have the flush you're not going to go broke here.

The disadvantges to checking this turn are if he has a mid pair with a spade and a fourth spade hits the river. You get away easily though if a fourth spade hits and he bets though. Also he may hit a two outer if he does have a mid pocket pair.

If a blank hits the river and he checks I will value bet my kings since he may think I have AQ and am taking another stab and call with a worse hand. If he reraises I will seriously consider folding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with you that pushing here probably isn't optimal, but I really think checking here is beyond weak/tight. Giving a free card here would be criminal.

I think you're way ahead here more often than not, and I'm still looking to get additional value out of this hand. Anywhere between 1/2 pot and full pot bet IMO is the best move.

-Rizen

Edit: Didn't realize hero had position, so changed a few comments.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do think are the odds he has a flush on the turn? i thought they were quite high at the time.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My first assumption here is that the turn doesn't give him a flush. (I know he might, but I'm coming around to the point of view that when you shut down because a flush is possible you lose a lot of value from your good hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be true in general, but here the board is so dry other than the flush draw. villain will usually c/r with a hand like 77. the only check/calling hands are A2, a flush draw, maybe A4/54, or air/overcards. i think the odds are good that villain now has a flush, and i don't want to be moved off my 4-outer. and i don't want to go broke if he does have it.

but the rest of your post hits why i checked behind pretty well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, and maybe I'm just used to playing against calling stations. If the villain (ever the optimist) looks at your flop bet and says, "Whiffed overcards" he'll call all day long with garbage, hoping to take it away from you on a later street.

When you check behind, you KNOW he's going to bet the river, so yeah, you gotta call.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do think are the odds he has a flush on the turn? i thought they were quite high at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised you think that with the action so far. I can think of a lot of hands that would call that flop, hoping you c-bet, then whiffed, to see how you like the turn. The river bet also seems a bit high for someone who wants you to call, as well.

I'm definitely leaning toward a call, but I would have preferred a turn bet, then check-check on the river. I'm comfortable losing some chips here, but probably not willing to play against an all-in.

Re: interesting turn card
 

so lets say you value bet this at say 400 chips - that leaves you with about 350. what next? whats the plan? if a fourth suited hits what do you do? i want to push him off any draw hand - if you value bet i think that pot commits you for the rest of your chips - no? unless the fourth suited card hits - then what? fold after putting 75% of your chips in -

Re: interesting turn card
 

Call and expect to see 88.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think you gotta pay him off since you checked the turn. I would bet the turn here. Prob 320 or so. Enough that he might get frisky w/ KQ or black 77. Him folding isn't the worst thing in the world since a fourflush is troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do think are the odds he has a flush on the turn? i thought they were quite high at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

heads up i don't really give too much thought about a made flush on a three flush board until he does something to make me think he has it (in this case since you are so short, about the only way you can find out is for him to show you after all the chips get in....*still wanna be in the red zone, betgo?*)

i think that check call, go for the check raise line is fairly common line for the flush, but so is bet out the flush draw, check raise the flush draw, bet out when you hit the flush on the turn...etc. There are plenty of hands that he could have that aren't the flush on the turn.

Also, by the river, is he still betting 400 on the flush when the board paired twice? Seems like a competant player might ch-call there.

Your hand isn't totally defined since you could easily have an overpair < K.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call and expect to see 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

my plan was to call a T200 bet and get shown 88. instead, i freaked out at the big bet and folded. i was convinced he has a 4/2/flush there a very high %.

it looks like pretty much everyone agrees this is a call on the river, which i take as pretty good evidence i'm wrong. the positive i take from this is that for a while i felt the only time i disagreed with the good posters was when i was saying push/call and they were saying fold. at least i'm getting better at making both kinds of errors. (i realize this reads as sort of sarcastic, but i don't mean it to be).

villain showed 9h3h and went on to prove himself to be a very laggy fish. i got some redemption when i called his c/r a-i with A high against his K high.

Re: interesting turn card
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, by the river, is he still betting 400 on the flush when the board paired twice?

[/ QUOTE ]

the board is double paired in name only. i'm probably not opening in EP with a 4 or 2 in my hand. i see the overbet often from hands that are mad they missed a bet on the turn and are trying to make up for it on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
i think that check call, go for the check raise line is fairly common line for the flush, but so is bet out the flush draw, check raise the flush draw, bet out when you hit the flush on the turn...etc. There are plenty of hands that he could have that aren't the flush on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point.