Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

Everything physical has boundaries. A beginning and an end. There can't be an infinite. So, the universe can't go on forever. It has to be inside something. But that something has to be inside something else etc. So how can it all exist?? Nothing can be infinite, but it has to be, or there has to at least be infinite 'somethings' for it all to exist. It's like it's all just a contradiction. So do I exist?? I have to exist (since I'm existing), but HOW can I exist? FWIW I don't think anybody can give the correct answer. You can state what you think, but it's probally not correct. Humans have their theories etc, but how much do we actually know and understand? Not alot.

How was the universe born?? Something can't create from nothing, since there wouldn't be anywhere for it to be created?? There has to be something there, so therefore it can't be created from nothing. But since nothing can be created, there always has to be something there, which can't be true. Jesus (no I don't believe in any god).

I know some people are going to argue that infinity does exist, but I don't believe it can. In theory sure, but in the physical world??

I reckon it's better not to try and think about it all, and just enjoy the ride.

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

Once you figure all that out, let the rest of mankind know. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

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Everything physical has boundaries. A beginning and an end. There can't be an infinite.

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says who?

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

Physical theories, by their nature, can never be entirely satisfying. Even with a "theory of everything" accurately describing all observable phenomena, one would still be left wondering why this one particular set of laws was somehow compelling enough to generate its own independent reality (or did it?).

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

Try looking at infinity from the other way. Theoretically there is an infinite distance between any Point A and Point B. If you start at Point A for example, and continued to shrink; it is possible to never reach Point B. Yet we know that Point B can not only be reached, but crossed.

I imagine that if you did continue to shrink you would eventually reach a point where you drop into another world and Point B becomes irrevelant. It would be outside your realm of existence.

This doesn't solve your infinity problem, because it necessitates an infinite number of Point B's. However, one way my small mind tries to reconcile this is to imagine something that loops back in on itself., which still wouldn't necessarily make sense in our limited dimensions because it would have to come from something. But perhaps in some other dimension it would make perfect sense.

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

How many 0-dimensional points are on a 1-dimensonal line? How many 1-dimensonal lines are on a 2-dimensional plane? How many 2-dimensonal planes are in a 3-dimensonal cube? How many 3-dimensional cubes are in a 4-dimensional space-time? How many 4-dimensional space-times are in 5,6,7,8,... - dimensonal multiverse?

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

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So, the universe can't go on forever. It has to be inside something.

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No, it doesn't. The phrase "outside" the universe has no meaning to us. There is no "there" there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everything physical has boundaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A beginning and an end.

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There can't be an infinite.

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These are your axioms of your belief sytem ( or adopted one for the sake of argument in this post). the important thing to realise is that not all will agree that your axioms are necessarily true in which case your conclusions, even if logically resultant from your axioms, need not be accepted as true.

I suspect, however, you believe these axioms to be self evidently true but they aren't, in my view.

Comments on axioms correctness will be as useful and interesting as on the conclusions you draw from them, I believe, hence this rather fundamental post in reply.

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

I understand that for everything to exist, infinity has to exist. What I can't understand is how infinity can exist physically.

"I suspect, however, you believe these axioms to be self evidently true"

I don't actually. I understand there has to be more to it. I just can't grasp how infinity can exist PHYSICALLY.

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

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I don't actually. I understand there has to be more to it. I just can't grasp how infinity can exist PHYSICALLY.

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Me too! I am inclined to believe that the universe is finite and unbounded. (I have no real view on whether everything must end)

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

i agree - sit back and enjoy the ride

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

"I know some people are going to argue that infinity does exist, but I don't believe it can. In theory sure, but in the physical world"

the concept of infinity is just that, it is a concept not an actual point that is attainable. The problem with infinity is that since it is unattainable but we say we know its there people dont understand it and doubt its physical presence. Now obviously you havent seen infinity but it is very easy to prove that it exists. To show it you show the proof of infinite primes.

Lemma 1. For every n, for every set of n natural numbers, there is a
prime not in that set.

Proof. Let k1,...,kn be the n numbers in question. Consider
(k1*...*kn)+1. If (k1*...*kn)+1 is prime, we are done, since
(k1*...*kn)+1 is greater than, hence distinct from, each ki. If
(k1*...*kn)+1 is not prime, then it has a prime factor. Let such a
factor be p. p cannot be any ki, since if it were it would leave
remainder 1 when divided into (k1*...*kn)+1.

Lemma 2. For every n, there is some prime > n.

Proof. Consider n!+1. If n!+1 is prime, we are done, since n!+1>n. But
if n!+1 is not prime, then it has a prime factor. Let such a factor be
p. p cannot be less than or equal to n, since if it were it would
leave remainder 1 when divided into n!+l. So p>n.

Theorem. For every prime p, there is some prime > p

Taken from: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/...er/000346.html

This leads to an even crazier idea about God. In talking with my college professors about this idea of infinity, religion always comes up and we see that the idea of grasping the unatainable such as infinity is like trying to understand God. Mathematicians call it infinity and theologists call it God. I myself am agnostic but i think infinity is the closest thing there can be to a God which is why I am agnostic. The religion aspect of this is just an idea of mine about infinity and the relationship to "God". My main point is that in our real world we do see that infinity exists. I guess some may argue with me by saying that a number isnt a physical thing it is a representaion and in which case I have no more help for you. But i hope this made the idea of infinity more clear for some and take what you will from it.

Re: Something I\'ve always wondered (universe)...
 

over a few well deserved cocktails i began to think about my post and realized what i said was wrong and i contradicted myself. From the proof we see that infinity "can" exist but not necessarily that it does. For it to exist i think you have to step out of the dimension of time. I think we have to understand when time started to know if an infinity is actually possible. We see only that it can exist not that it "physically" does which is what i wanted to repost.