K8s trips play along
 

live game early morning. 7 handed. not a great game but there are some action spots.

utg - the only white guy at the table. that means he's an honest player. from what i can tell, he plays decently but is too loose preflop

utg+1 - is on fire right now. very loose aggro prflop, but plays well postflop. openraised 84s from utg before, so an openraise from him means very little, though after a limper his raises mean his hand is probably a little better.

mp - he is utg+1's friend and if they are ever HU postflop will check it down. he is not a very good player, but he's not stupid.

button - action player, but plays reasonably well. just gets out of line sometimes.

preflop: UTG limps. UTG+1 raises. MP coldcalls. Button calls. SB folds. I call in the bb with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG calls. 5 players in for 10.5 small bets.

flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check. UTG checks. UTG+1 bets. MP raises. Button folds. I... ?

Re: K8s trips play along
 

This is a tough one. Have you seen the friends raise each other before? -- I'd be hard pressed to fold here, so I probably 3-bet and lead the turn.

If it gets capped, I'd consider check/folding the turn, but I'd probably wuss out and turn into weak-tight calling station mode. If he's got a bigger K or TT you got 3 outs at best if you're not good right now. If it's capped I'd hope UTG+1 caps so when you check the turn you can see the action behind you before making a decision.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

Some thoughts. Have you ever seen MP act to protect his friends hands? Also, he may simply be raising a pocket pair, knowing that UTG+1 probably does not have a King.

I check-3-bet and call a cap. This pretty much advertises that I have a King, but I don't care. The pot has already gotten big.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

does MP never raise UTG+1 in a multiway pot without a hand?

could he be trying to just get you and the white guy out to make it heads up?

i think i call and pop the turn, then reevaluate from there

i dont necessarily want to knock UTG out, and im not sure what im dealing with from MP, but without more of a read, im going to assume i have the best hand most of the time and try to get the most value out of it

Re: K8s trips play along
 

if you coldcall and lead the turn UTG+1 is probaly gonna get rid of whatever junk he has anyway.

i check-3-bet and lead.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont necessarily want to knock UTG out, and im not sure what im dealing with from MP, but without more of a read, im going to assume i have the best hand most of the time and try to get the most value out of it

[/ QUOTE ]

How often is UTG calling two cold here? I'm not too concerned about him. I think we're much more likely to get two additional small bets on the flop by just 3-betting.

Plus, I think I'd rather know to slow down by getting capped on the flop than 3-bet on the turn.

Just some thoughts.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

yeah, your probly right, i dont know

Re: K8s trips play along
 

Check 3-bet the flop. Lead the turn even if it's capped, call down if raised at that point.

Any chance these two are working to protect the other's hand?

Re: K8s trips play along
 

the only reason I would three bet this flop is to get out a QJ type hand. if utg+1 is "on fire" I could see him calling with AJ or even J9, but I don't see him coldcalling with this hand. imo, I would cold call and bet out on the turn.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

3-bet.

I don't see any reason to let UTG+1 see the turn cheaply.

MP's range to raise here could be pretty wide.

UTG is almost certainly folding, anyway.

We probably have the best hand.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

I like a 3-bet here too. The pot is growing to the point where we need to protect what is likely the best hand, and many potential holdings have lots of outs against us. Seeing any broadway card on the turn will suck, and I want to get the money in now.

If, after we 3-bet, it gets capped, then I will check the turn and reevaluate. If our 3-bet gets called, I will lead the turn and reevaluate if raised.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

I get the feeling that they'll play the rest of the streets passively against each other so I'm 3-betting this now. Just coldcalling the flop doesn't leave many great options for the turn.

Turn
 

note: no, mp wouldn't collude like that to protect his friend's hand.

i thought for a second and decided to just call here. (mistake?). UTG coldcalls two which turned my head a little. UTG+1 laughs a little and then folds.

3 way on the turn for 8.75 big bets.

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

plans?

Re: Turn
 

UTG better have QJ or I think you're fooked.

Re: Turn
 

Lead the turn. If UTG is slow playing trips, he is probably popping it here which is good to face the 3rd player with 2 cold. If he is drawing, you can't let him get to the river cheaply on a check through. Either way, I think by leading you will get a good idea where everyone stands and ensure that bets are going in when you probably have the best hand.

Re: Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]


turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a check-raise is in order. That 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a holdem card if there ever was one, so I don't see MP taking a free card. He'll bet, so you need to define your hand and charge UTG with 2 BBs.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

With the reads it feels like we are in trouble, but I like 3-betting and we have to assume we have the best hand until someone let's us know.

Re: Turn
 

i kind of like c/ring, but i dont know, im not giving UTG credit for trips yet and id like to face him with 2 cold, mp will probably bet, but im still having a hard time figuring out what hes got and his reason for a flop raise, with UTG+1 out he may give up and check if he dosent have trips fearing a c/r, so betting out may be better, i dont know

id also like to see what UTG does, so a check and see approach may be best, this is a tough one

Re: Turn
 

There are a few cases here that could be going on.

1. UTG has a King or TT. You are destroyed, drawing to 3 outs (unless he has KT).
2. UTG has QJ. His draw is probably live, unless MP cold-calls with AK.
3. UTG has a pocket pair (or a ten) and does not believe MP. I find this to be unlikely given a bet, a raise, and a cold call in front of him.
4. UTG has a gutshot. I don't believe this.

A. MP has a King or TT. Any King he cold-calls with likely has you destroyed.
B. MP has a pocket pair (or just a ten) other than Tens and was raising because he suspect UTG+1 had no king or higher PP.
C. MP could have QJ I suppose and still think UTG+1 is full of it, and is trying to take the pot away from him on a semi-bluff.

You need to assign probabilities to each of these and then figure the total probability that you're ahead.

I'm going to assign probabilities like this (completely out of my ass):

1: 45%, 2: 45%, 3: 10%.

A: 20% B: 70% C: 10%

Feel free to argue with these numbers.

One thing to remember however is that UTG and MP can't both have a King. So I feel like we're good here around 45% of the time. Your numbers may vary, but I certainly think we're ahead more than 1/3 of the time.

We don't want to let the turn check through. I bet the turn and see who, if anyone, raises. But this is going to look really funny since we didn't 3-bet pre-flop. And UTG flat calling may not tell us anything. He's either drawing or could be letting in MP behind him.

Edit: I really dislike checking the turn because, as you can see from my numbers, I think a significant fraction of the time MP does not have a King. Hero's calling two cold on this dlop is HIGHLY suspicious.

Re: Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
note: no, mp wouldn't collude like that to protect his friend's hand.

i thought for a second and decided to just call here. (mistake?). UTG coldcalls two which turned my head a little. UTG+1 laughs a little and then folds.

3 way on the turn for 8.75 big bets.

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]




I think I would opt for a check-raise on the turn. I want UTG to look at two more cold if he is drawing. This allows me to view the turn action also before committing. I'm not 100% sure MP will bet again by the description you give of him. You say not very ggod but not stupid. Does that mean he can analize a hand. Does he know giving free cards = Bad etc.

Even if he has you beat he doesn't sound like the type to 3-bet you without a monster.

Re: Turn
 

Does he know that getting cold called on that flop = bad if he doesn't actually have a King? I think so.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

[ QUOTE ]
utg - the only white guy at the table. that means he's an honest player.

[/ QUOTE ]

It took me a minute to get past this quote without laughing. Back to the hand.

Re: Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a check-raise is in order. That 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a holdem card if there ever was one, so I don't see MP taking a free card. He'll bet, so you need to define your hand and charge UTG with 2 BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see MP betting unless he has a king. If two people check-coldcall a raise on the flop, I'm pretty sure one of them has a king. I lead the turn.

Re: Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
note: no, mp wouldn't collude like that to protect his friend's hand.

i thought for a second and decided to just call here. (mistake?). UTG coldcalls two which turned my head a little. UTG+1 laughs a little and then folds.

3 way on the turn for 8.75 big bets.

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet out.

Re: Turn
 

If he has 10's we are drawing to 6 outs (3-2's and 3-8's)
but i agree to bet out. One is drawing so we cant let this get checked thru. I guess best case would be UTG with JQ and MP AQ but thats wishful thinking.

Re: Turn
 

while free cards are not your friend i think that the chance to face UTG with 2 is worth the chance this gets checked through.

River
 

my immediate thought on the flop was that utg either had a king (and since he limped utg would likely have a better kicker than mine) or has QJ. MP may or may not have a king, but i know for sure he's not going to bet the turn without one after being coldcalled in two spots.

so this turn looks like a pretty easy bet.

i bet. utg calls. mp folds.

river

two choices

a) what do you do with the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ?

K K T 2 9

b) what do you do with the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

K K T 2 3

Re: River
 

[ QUOTE ]
utg - the only white guy at the table. that means he's an honest player. from what i can tell, he plays decently but is too loose preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like this is an easy bet-fold in both cases, no?

Re: River
 

I throw up in my mouth if the 9 falls. I probably check call because the pot's too big for me to take a chance that I have him outkicked or he's hanging around with a big T. The reason for this is I really can't value bet this hand now knowing I'm highly likely dead and I don't want to pay a bet to fold. I figure I might get him to bluff at the pot if I check and I win an extra bet on those rare occasions I'm ahead. The other times it checks through and I'm relieved when the pot gets pushed my way. Check folding is not an option.

I bet/ fold if the 3 falls. Since he's white he must have KT.

Re: River
 

if we accept that he definitely has either a K with a better kicker of QJ than you should c/f the 9 and c/c the 3.

otherwise... i b/f the 9. it's slim, but if villain does not have QJ and has a worse hand he's called two streets with he's not betting here but he might call one more.

if the three comes off c/c... still seems better as whiffed draws aren't calling, but may sometimes make a desperation bet. although i can see the same argument for b/f as with the 9.

all that said... given the way this hand played out... i'm having trouble putting villain on enough non QJ and Kx (where x is higher than 8) to make me think my original assertion isn't best. other than it feels weak.

Re: River
 

[ QUOTE ]
a) what do you do with the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ?

K K T 2 9

b) what do you do with the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

K K T 2 3

[/ QUOTE ]

I check-call both. I think there's enough chance given the image of MP that UTG has a pocket pair that, given the size of the pot, I can call when the 9 hits. Plus I get to sleep that night.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

Very interesting hand.

I would have been tempted to 3-bet the flop.

Given the flop action I would bet out on the turn.

I hate the 9 on the river so I check/call. I'm ok with betting the 3.

Edit: I would consider suited Broadway/Tens among UTG's possible holdings, or Suited K7-K4 as reasonable hands that a loose preflop player could be holding that we beat, as well as possibly some AJ's or J9's.

Re: River
 

[ QUOTE ]
if we accept that he definitely has either a K with a better kicker of QJ than you should c/f the 9 and c/c the 3.

otherwise... i b/f the 9. it's slim, but if villain does not have QJ and has a worse hand he's called two streets with he's not betting here but he might call one more.

if the three comes off c/c... still seems better as whiffed draws aren't calling, but may sometimes make a desperation bet. although i can see the same argument for b/f as with the 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

These were my thoughts at first, but I think we can add AT to his range, maybe even QTs or a pocket pair so I kind of like bet/fold on the 3 as well. Also there was a vague read of him being "honest", he might not even bluff the busted draw.

Edit: Maybe he value bets the majority of the hands we beat like AT anyway, so maybe check/call is best since the read about him being honest isn't strong. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/ fold if the 3 falls. Since he's white he must have KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was actually a live 80/160 hand, but at the moment was a rare instance where it was playing like a 8/16 game for the past two or three orbits.

I wasn't 100% sure of his limping standards but suited kings suit these players well and I thought there was a decent chance he may have K7s or K6s or that my read was totally off and would pay off with JT or something so I bet. and he raised. I thought for a second and nodded my head and folded. He showed me KT, because he's white.

fwiw, i'm check/calling a 9 or an ace.

Re: Results
 

nh.

Btw, flop situations like this are really tough with a table of people who know what they're doing post-flop. I would prefer to 3-bet even if my image is squeaky atm.

Flop aggression always leave a little doubt and the initial raisor has to expect his raises are getting little respect. So even after the initial raise, you could be 3-betting with variety of hands to isolate against someone who could be playing a weak T, a pp or be raising with air-broadway/Ace-high.

The rest of the hand plays the same, so I don't think it matters that much in this instance.

- Jim

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet/ fold if the 3 falls. Since he's white he must have KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was actually a live 80/160 hand, but at the moment was a rare instance where it was playing like a 8/16 game for the past two or three orbits.

I wasn't 100% sure of his limping standards but suited kings suit these players well and I thought there was a decent chance he may have K7s or K6s or that my read was totally off and would pay off with JT or something so I bet. and he raised. I thought for a second and nodded my head and folded. He showed me KT, because he's white.

fwiw, i'm check/calling a 9 or an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the river is check/call almost regardless of the card given your descriptions and, more importantly, if they read hands well. Your hand looks like AT/QT/JT/T9 or some such looking to pick-off a couple of gambooling table LAGs and I think a lot of hands you beat will value-bluff if you check.

Re: K8s trips play along
 

I would raise here to see where I am. You're worried about QJ or a K with a better kicker. If I got raised again, I would probably call down