Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

And he's totally right.

It's been said before, but why is the WSOP so holdem-heavy?

The Razz event, despite being downgraded to a one-day event scheduled the same day as the 5K Shorthanded event in 2005, managed to attract a 50% bigger field than the 2004 event, a result of the tv coverage.

The directors of the WSOP don't need to cater to public taste--they shape it. Imagine if they televized the 5K/rebuy 2-7 NL. I would guess dozens of new players would be interested in playing. I think it would also make for a great televized event, but that's a different story.

Of course Hold 'Em should comprise the majority of WSOP events, but there are scores of poker players who would be appeased by the inclusion of HORSE, SHOE, stud/8, etc. Hell, I expected them to add a Badugi event this year.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, I expected them to add a Badugi event this year.

[/ QUOTE ]Help. Whats Badugi?

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Badugi is a game that seems to be gaining popularity among high-limit cash game degenerates.

It's 4-card triple draw rainbow. So the best hand is A-2-3-4 of different suits. Suits and pairs count against you, so if you don't have a badugi (a four card, non-paired, unsuited hand) the best three card hand wins.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

seems like Harrahs is only interested in collecting the rake. holdem attracks the most people and the most money for them. the world series should have events in all types of poker, including Chinese and 5 card draw, and definately a few mixed game tournaments. i dont think they can play Badugi in Vegas somehow its illegal or something.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Well, the casino's prerogative is to make money, and Hold'em is where the money is right now. I would like them to spread other games as well, though.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the casino's prerogative is to make money, and Hold'em is where the money is right now

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my point was kind of the opposite of that--yeah there's more money in hold 'em, but the money goes wherever the ESPN cameras go, so it's really up to Harrah's and ESPN to manage the popularity of various forms of poker.

The WSOP is 6 weeks of action. Their bottom line wouldn't be too drastically affected by the replacement of 1 or 2 hold 'em events with a specialized mixed-game event or two.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

I can't find the 2006 WSOP schedule. Anyone have a link? Thanks.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hold'em is where the money is right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

and espn agrees. but that's right now. to keep the popularity of poker at this level for a while, they need to stagger the line-up a little more. i think you'll see the public tire of poker much more quickly if its just NL holdem, rather than a televised line-up of hold'em, stud, omaha, razz, and some 2-7 NL.

jesus, they didn't even have a HORSE event this year, did they.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus, they didn't even have a HORSE event this year, did they.

[/ QUOTE ]

They did not have a HORSE event in 2005.

Negreanu's point is that after many players expressed dissapointment in the un-diversification of the lineup, he hoped that management would make some corrections for the 2006 schedule.

Not only did they not add or replace any of the mixed game events (incidentally, Danny wrote the chapter on 2-7 Triple Draw in SS2, aren't there any college kids out there chomping at the bit to play?), but they deleted one of the Stud Hi-Lo tournaments.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

I want to play 2-7 sooo much yet all my college friends ever want to play is hold 'em. They won't even try omaha ;/

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Ever since Harrah's took over they've [censored] the WSOP up. I mean what's the difference if they used 10 tables for a mixed event ? They still get there buy fees, still have to pay a dealer, and there's still 9 players at each table. Anyone think it's possible a lot of players might do a boycott of the WSOP like they did the WPT ? Wonder what would happen if they went to Jack Binion and formed some sort of newer WSOP. Hmm, anyone else think that could happen? I'm sure that's something he really wants back.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Earlier this year, the Plaza in downtown Vegas tried holding a series of tournaments, incuding Razz, A-5 lowball, HORSE, etc. That didn't go over too well, although the promotion was incredibly weak and most people don't seem to want to go to the Plaza.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone think it's possible a lot of players might do a boycott of the WSOP like they did the WPT ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, none of the top pros have showed up for the WPT this year.

[ QUOTE ]
Wonder what would happen if they went to Jack Binion and formed some sort of newer WSOP

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one WSOP, and Harrah's owns it.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, anyone else think that could happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Earlier this year, the Plaza in downtown Vegas tried holding a series of tournaments, incuding Razz, A-5 lowball, HORSE, etc. That didn't go over too well, although the promotion was incredibly weak and most people don't seem to want to go to the Plaza.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not impressed by the Plaza. When we were there in July it was a ghost town in there.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

yeh i agree completely. Harrah's is diluting the WSOP brand/image so much that pretty soon its going to become borderline meaningless to have won a bracelet. I think the WSOP should have one tournament for each of the different games each with a 10k buyin, so only 1 NL hold'em, 1 pot limit omaha, etc.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

1. Daniel writes : "The people in control aren't interested in helping poker flourish, they have a bottom line to think about that takes precedence over all else."

If there is money to be made during the WSOP from hosting a Mixed Events tourney in Las Vegas, why can't Daniel or some of the other people interested in helping poker flourish explain to someone other than Harrah's, such Wynn, the potential profits to be made.

2. Better yet, why not get the heavily-moneyed pros themselves to "four-wall" a concurrent tournament series in Las Vegas, or on an off-date somewhere else, featuring these non-NLHE games ?

We do not spread many "nontraditional" games at Truepoker, but we certainly would be willing to help a tourney series promote PL Omaha and PL Omaha8.

Truepoker CEO

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. Better yet, why not get the heavily-moneyed pros themselves to "four-wall" a concurrent tournament series in Las Vegas, or on an off-date somewhere else, featuring these non-NLHE games ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Players are lobbying for the inclusion of these events in the WSOP, not a random series of events elsewhere (such as the Plaza) which will be less well-attended and less prestigious.

Winning the Wynn Obscuro Lowball Event isn't what people are looking for.

Anything Harrah's chooses to spread at the WSOP 2006 will be well-attended. Period. If you spread A-5 lowball in 2006, it would get more entrants than back in the day when they still played that game.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the casino's prerogative is to make money, and Hold'em is where the money is right now. I would like them to spread other games as well, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a friend who works in finance at the RIO... and last WSOP their cages, eateries, and bars raked in over 87% more money than any other month in the history of the RIO.

Can't they give a little back to the Poker Players by building more bathroom facilities and/or adding the events we want to see?

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ever since Harrah's took over they've [censored] the WSOP up. I mean what's the difference if they used 10 tables for a mixed event ? They still get there buy fees, still have to pay a dealer, and there's still 9 players at each table. Anyone think it's possible a lot of players might do a boycott of the WSOP like they did the WPT ? Wonder what would happen if they went to Jack Binion and formed some sort of newer WSOP. Hmm, anyone else think that could happen? I'm sure that's something he really wants back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Binion signed a hefty "non-competitive agreement" and he's still getting paid like a fat oil tycoon of the royalities.

The best bet would be for a pro... someone like Phil to start a new "Super-Series" of poker with $25K minimum buy-ins.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
The directors of the WSOP don't need to cater to public taste--they shape it.

[/ QUOTE ]I dont think its the WSOP directors per se, but ESPN who shapes the public's taste.

Ill use me and my high school buddies as a representation of young american men in general. Before the 2003 WSOP was shown on tv we couldnt tell you holdem from stud from parcheesi. After seeing it on tv we started playing NL Holdem, and that was all we knew. After the 2004 WSOP was shown on TV we were exposed to some other forms of poker. While we still played mostly NL Holdem at our home games, as that is what we had most experience in, we were all very curious to experiment with Omaha, Omaha 8/b, Stud, and Razz.

If ESPN chose to show many different forms of poker im sure they could make just as much money providing all different kinds of poker tournaments at the WSOP.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]

Can't they give a little back to the Poker Players by building more bathroom facilities and/or adding the events we want to see?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are giving the public what they want to see. They want hold 'em.

I don't have any info on the bathrooms.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
we were all very curious to experiment with Omaha, Omaha 8/b, Stud, and Razz.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only been ten years since high school, but back then we were all very curious to experiment with LSD, mushrooms and coke. Funny how times have changed.

It's true that ESPN shapes the public's taste moreso than Harrah's. And I suppose ESPN took razz off the tv schedule this year, because it generated worse ratings than the hold 'em events. Nevertheless, it piqued the curiosity of a lot of players who, like me, having never played razz, decided to enter this year's event. People will enter ANY event as long as its WSOP-related. The only issue as I see it is, after ESPN has its broadcasting quota of HE events set, why can't Harrah's sprinkle in some more variety for the players?

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

First, as a poker player, I agree with yours and DN's general sentiment, and I wish that, in general, large poker tournaments weren't so NL Holdem-heavy (for me personally, I'd like to see more Omaha in general, as well as mixed games ... SHOE, HOE, HORSE, SORES, WHORE, etc.).

However, as is the tendency on these boards many times ... I think we project the thought processes of the poker purists in ourselves on entities who are driven to make money, and the mass audience that they attempt to address.

Bear with me, young Bob Dylan [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ... I recognize the point you're suggesting ...

[ QUOTE ]
The directors of the WSOP don't need to cater to public taste--they shape it. Imagine if they televized the 5K/rebuy 2-7 NL. I would guess dozens of new players would be interested in playing. I think it would also make for a great televized event, but that's a different story.


[/ QUOTE ]

They've tried to diversify, and it hasn't worked.

I suspect that the ESPN ratings for non-Holdem events is significantly below those of the Holdem events, and no-limit much higher than limit. The reality is ... 7 Card Stud, Razz, Limit Holdem, Triple Draw, even my beloved Omaha ... just don't make good television.

They haven't replayed these events very often, and my focus group of one (my wife) thinks that these other games are "dumb". Let me try to elaborate on what I think she means ...

Stud and Razz are boring to watch. Unless you're a nut about those games, it really is boring to see these games played ... bet, call, bet, call, bet, call, two pairs wins. And this is after ESPN edits it into the most interesting 42 minutes, something they're pretty good at. All I remember about last year's Razz event is that every player at the table kept saying how much they hated the game.

Limit Holdem plays the same way on TV, and PLO events are a bit too confusing for someone who doesn't play. Hell, a guy at the final table last year tried to make a straight with 3 of his hole cards.

NLHE is easy to understand, it is dramatic, and it lends itself well to a TV format that people watch.

So, I guess my point is that I believe that ESPN has tried to highlight other games, and my belief is that they have found them to be not as successful as what they show in NL events. If I were a betting man, and by definition, I am, I would say that the ratings on these events are significantly below those of the NLHE events. So, if they could truly "shape" public perception and make these events into popular television, then they would have done so.

You yourself suggest that "dozens" of new players would want to play if the NL 2-7 event were shown. While I watched it online and enjoyed it, I would bet you a dollar that it wouldn't get nearly the ratings or interest of a NLHE event. ESPN and Harrah's don't care about "dozens", they want my dad (and millions like him) to watch these shows in rerun 8 times, drink some Milwaukee's Beast Light, and perhaps someday try their hand at the game live. NLHE events have proven to be by far the most effective way to do this.

Never underestimate the ability of a TV network to quickly determine the most profitable way to fill their air time, and certainly never, ever underestimate the ability of a casino to squeeze every half penny out of the public that they can.

If there truly was a way for either ESPN, Harrah's, or the combination of the two to build a buzz (read: more money) out of non-NLHE events ... believe me, they'd do it.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Turnouts for this year's WSOP events.

6/17 $1,000 7 Card Studd High-Low 8/B: 595
6/17 $1,500 Limit Hold 'em Shootout: 450
6/18 $1,500 No-Limit Hold 'em Shootout: 780
6/19 $2,500 Limit Hold 'em: 373
<font color="red">6/20 $2,000 7 card Stud High-Low 8/B: 279 </font>
<font color="red">6/20 $1,500 Pot-Limit Omaha: 291 </font>
<font color="red"> 6/22 $5,000 Pot-Limit Omaha: 239 </font>
6/23 $2,500 Omaha High-Low 8/B: 359
6/24 $1,500 No-Limit Hold 'em: 2,013
<font color="red">6/25 $5,000 7 Card Stud: 192 </font>
6/26 $2,500 No-Limit Hold 'em: 1,056
6/26 $2,500 Pot-Limit Hold 'em: 425
6/27 $1,000 Ladies No-Limit Hold 'em: 601
<font color="red">6/28 $5,000 Pot-Limit Omaha: 134 </font>
<font color="red">6/29 $5,000 Limit Hold 'em: 269 </font>
6/30 $2,000 No-Limit Hold 'em: 1,072
<font color="red">6/30 $1,500 Seven Card Razz: 291 </font>
6/30 $5,000 No-Limit Short Handed (6/Table): 301
<font color="red">7/2 $5,000 Omaha High-Low 8/B: 224 </font>
7/3 $3,000 No-Limit Hold 'em: 1,010
7/3 $1,000 No-Limit Hold 'em Seniors: 825
<font color="red">7/4 $10,000 Pot-Limit Omaha: 165 </font>
7/4 $3,000 Limit Hold 'em: 406
7/5 $1,000 No-Limit Hold 'em: 1,584
<font color="red">7/6 $5,000 No-Limit 2-7 Draw Lowball: 85 </font>
7/11 $1,500 No-Limit Hold 'em: 863
7/12 $1,000 No-Limit Hold 'em: 971
7/13 $1,000 No-Limit Hold 'em: 758
7/15 $10,000 No-Limit Hold 'em Championship: 5,619


Events which drew less than 300 players are highlighted in red. None of them are no-limit hold 'em and only the $5,000 event is limit hold 'em. Meanwhile, just two non hold 'em events were able to draw more than 300 players.

Even when you exclude the Championship Event, the open no-limit tournaments drew an average of 1,166 players.

I think the players have spoken very clearly to Harrahs about what they want.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Can't they give a little back to the Poker Players by building more bathroom facilities and/or adding the events we want to see?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are giving the public what they want to see. They want hold 'em.

I don't have any info on the bathrooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there's a witty remark in here about "hold em" and waiting in long lines for the bathroom....

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

I'm not arguing that hold' em does and will attract many times more the players than any of the side events, but it has nothing to do with Daniel's point.

The other events deserve some representation at the WSOP. If Harrah's spread a HORSE and another lowball event, you wouldn't hear players complaining that there wasn't enough hold 'em at this year's series.

Also, since my point is that people are interested in playing WSOP tournaments no matter what the game, I'm curious how those numbers in red compare to the numbers from the same events in years past. Care to look it up Dynasty?

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Care to look it up Dynasty?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was your idea. I volunteer you to do the research.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the players have spoken very clearly to Harrahs about what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it still sucks that money talks so much louder than tradition that the latter cannot be heard.

-kyo

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we were all very curious to experiment with Omaha, Omaha 8/b, Stud, and Razz.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only been ten years since high school, but back then we were all very curious to experiment with LSD, mushrooms and coke. Funny how times have changed.

[/ QUOTE ]oh, dont worry times havent changed [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
It's true that ESPN shapes the public's taste moreso than Harrah's. And I suppose ESPN took razz off the tv schedule this year, because it generated worse ratings than the hold 'em events. Nevertheless, it piqued the curiosity of a lot of players who, like me, having never played razz, decided to enter this year's event. People will enter ANY event as long as its WSOP-related. The only issue as I see it is, after ESPN has its broadcasting quota of HE events set, why can't Harrah's sprinkle in some more variety for the players?

[/ QUOTE ]exactly, we dont need tons of non-HE tourneys, but at least have one of each one including HORSE and SHOE, which carries some prestige among pros.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Not to mention they make a crapload of money hosting Hold'em events over any other event.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was your idea. I volunteer you to do the research.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look no further than the 2-7 event, which had 20 more entries this year than last. That's a 5K rebuy event.

There is a lot of money in poker right now. There are a lot of people in Vegas during the WSOP who are jonesing tournament action of any kind and the atmosphere inspires people to take all kinds of shots.

It's also possible to run these less-popular events on the same day (staggered) as hold 'em events without hurting either turnout too much. At WSOP 2005 they played the 5K SH and the Razz tournament on the same day, and both were rather successful.

So far I haven't heard a compelling reason why Harrah's would be hurting themselves by offering more events. They have the resources, they have the economy, and they have the interest.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

2004 #'s in blue

6/17 $1,000 7 Card Studd High-Low 8/B: 595 (2004 similar was $1,500) <font color="blue">213 </font>
6/20 $2,000 7 card Stud High-Low 8/B: 279 <font color="blue"> 224</font>
6/20 $1,500 Pot-Limit Omaha: 291 (2004 similar was $2,000)<font color="blue"> 145 </font>
6/22 $5,000 Pot-Limit Omaha: 239 <font color="blue"> 145 </font>
6/23 $2,500 Omaha High-Low 8/B: 359 (2004 similar was $2,000) <font color="blue">234 </font>
6/25 $5,000 7 Card Stud: 192 <font color="blue"> 144 </font>
6/30 $1,500 Seven Card Razz: 291 <font color="blue"> 195 </font>
7/2 $5,000 Omaha High-Low 8/B: 224 <font color="blue"> 121 </font>
7/6 $5,000 No-Limit 2-7 Draw Lowball: 85 <font color="blue"> 46</font>

As always with the WSOP, the schedule is nowhere near the same year to year, ditto the entry fees, so "similar" events needed to be used. A while back I broke down the events and buy-ins for the WSOPs from 2002-2004, trying to come up with the "perfect schedule" for another site, and one funny factoid is that in 2002, there were a grand total of 4 Open NLHE events (including the ME). I might go ahead and re-do the breakdown altogether. I know I came up with something like 40 total events.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stud and Razz are boring to watch. Unless you're a nut about those games, it really is boring to see these games played ... bet, call, bet, call, bet, call, two pairs wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really enjoyed the 2004 Razz, especially watching the normally unflappable Howard Lederer become agitated at making "three pair" on the river. It made me feel better about screaming at my computer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, the Stud event with Ted Forrest calling the normally solid Chad Brown all the way to the river with a winning pair of deuces was great. That was clearly the turning point of their heads-up match.

These have got to be better TV moments than "They're all in, AK against a pair of (insert your own number here)."

If the ratings are worse for the non-HE events, it's probably because the public doesn't know the games. The day after the first 2005 WSOP PLO broadcast, I logged on for some 1-2 PLO. Instead of the usual three or four tables, there were six tables in action. Presumably, people saw the game on TV and were curious to try it. If ESPN keeps broadcasting alternative games, the public will probably become well enough educated to appreciate the best poker, whatever form it happens to take.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

i think people are also forgetting that there's PLENTY of room at the rio. they could easily have a HORSE event during the later part of the day of one of their smaller events, like the $5,000 LHE or something. there's no reason they can't expand without contracting their older games. i could easily see them spreading 50+ tournaments over 7 weeks.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

completely hypothetical... but they could easily add at least two dozen other events. they have 200 tables, which they could fill every day if they made it 100 tables max per event, or just staggered the times. not every event uses all 200 tables, and they could easily schedule more stud 8 events to fill up 40 tables, have 100+ tables going for whatever event is that day, and still have room for cash games and satellites.

in fact, i think they could probably have two tournaments a day. i'm kind of surprised they don't do this as is, considering how much money they want to pump out of the series as is.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the players have spoken very clearly to Harrahs about what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, Harrah's wants players, ESPN wants viewers, players and viewers want Hold 'em. Everybody but the pro's are happy. What the problem?

Just more whining from the pro's. For some reason the pro's think because they are pro's there opinions are worth more. They are wrong.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Badugi is a game that seems to be gaining popularity among high-limit cash game degenerates.

It's 4-card triple draw rainbow. So the best hand is A-2-3-4 of different suits. Suits and pairs count against you, so if you don't have a badugi (a four card, non-paired, unsuited hand) the best three card hand wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

'cept it's not poker. Not really related to poker at all. May as well play gin rummy or cribbage.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

[ QUOTE ]
'cept it's not poker. Not really related to poker at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Explain why not.

Re: Negreanu Criticizes the WSOP \'s one-dimensional lineup
 

Could it be that some of the pros want non holdem events with higher buy ins, so they have a better chance to win a bracelet and keep their "famous pro" status?