I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

I can't take it anymore - in the few weeks since I've been off the sauce, I cannot help but accept a simple fact - my MTT game sucks. I cannot make it a winning game - I've studied fairly well, played enough LL games - I have a bit of a problem reading Harrington because of one of those attention deficit issues, but I'm gonna go over him again on the airplane to Reno this weekend.

I'm pretty good at the top 20% - My Weak Tight style of play opening up in the middle works ok - a lot of the times if I get that close I'm in the money but not much past the edge of it.

I'm missing something - some little piece that puts all that together and clicks - I'm thinking of maybe sitting out with a piece of paper and a pen and just making a decision to bluff one out of ten hands I think is unplayable just to do it - try to see a flop or something.

I will devour MLG's and ExitOnly's recent posts with great veracity - but guys - what pushed you that last 20 percent?

I think my biggest problem is I don't think I bet enough - I'm so scared of getting re-raised/bluffed off a hand I'd rather check/call so I know exactly every action how much it'll cost me to do -

I didn't realize it really until I wrote that how much it's in my head - how important it is for me that I need to know how much that next card is gonna cost before I pay to see it -

the idea the price is going up terrifies me - Interestingly enough - some of my greatest tourney successes of the last year before this dry spell I was all in more, probably in an attempt to stave off bluffing -

Or maybe this is a throwback to my limit days where I know that even if I get raised I still know how much it'll be - and without that certainity here, I don't want to bet too much with something like 66 even though it's probably a +EV event over time on a J42 board with one opponent.

Interesting - I'll roll that over in my head but in the meantime - guys - what was that one little spark that pushed you into winning territory - I was sorta there a couple years ago, but I've backslidden into medocrity lately - haven't had a finish over $422 all year according to my records, and that was a live Shootout in Laughlin.

Just not hitting this year, and I know the fields are bigger, but I should still be making the money in 10% of them over time - and I am doing that, but it's not enough and I'm running at a deficit. Can't get a big score at all and can't get a win this year....

phooey.

RB

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

I went through the same thing a couple of months ago, and came to the same conclusion that I think you are realizing.

Sometimes, you just have to play more hands.

As we all know, the whole key to getting a 'big cash' is having a big stack. You don't get a big stack by playing 14% of your flops, and checking when your AK misses.

Open up your game. When you call a raise in the blinds, lead it out with less than normal. Steal, steal, steal. Late in tournaments, be one of those guys who pushes almost any two from the button when folded to. Call w/ position with suited connectors, suited one gappers, etc.

I know some people may disagree with some of this stuff, but placing 120th in the 11R doesn't mean crap. I finished 180th in the 40K last night for a profit of 11$. It means nothing. It's all about the big stack. It's all about going deep. It's all about no fear, because if you play scared, you will continue to barely eeek into the money.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

Sounds like you are not aggressive enough. The beauty of aggressiveness is, sometimes it can force your opponent off a hand that has you beat. Also, being aggressive and betting gives you information that check calling would never give you, like a range of what hands they might have. If you check call, they can have almost any hand.

Position is also key, raise more from late position to steal the button. Then, if everyone checks to you on the flop, get in the habit of betting even if you don't hit (with some exceptions, if you got a draw and wouldn't mind seeing another card, do that). It is amazing how often you can take down a pot just by putting a bet out there. Also, get good reads on your opponents when playing. If they are loose and very aggressive, let their aggression come out, then trap them with a big raise when you are sure you are probably ahead. If they are passive, then you will have to be the one to take the initiative.

There is alot more to it, but it's a good start. I reccomend jumping into the discussions, and posting hands here, it will seriously help your game out to see where some leaks are that you might not know about.

Good luck!

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

LL players are terrible at NL MTTs. You can't be super tight at MTTs. But at same time you can't go around calling UTG raises when you have AQo. Read, re-read, and re-read HOH. And play MTTs. And then re-read HOH.

I think personally the biggest problem for many is not so much opening from MP with ATs or whatever. Instead it is calling raises from early position opponents: that is a death wish (if you hold less than AA/KK/QQ and non-pairs less than AK).

Also, the donkeys out there can be frustrating, even though we "win" in the long run because of +EV of our cards (but the long run for MTTs is a long, long, long way away).

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think my biggest problem is I don't think I bet enough - I'm so scared of getting re-raised/bluffed off a hand I'd rather check/call so I know exactly every action how much it'll cost me to do -

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be aggressive. Accept that you will bust out of some tournaments, and that you will pick up far more pots and get more out of your edges when you bet.
Courage! All the skill in the world is useless if you do not have the heart to put it to use.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

For a while there I was just nailing the 11-16% bracket - just chump change or just shy of the bubble

and I tried to tell myself - "Imagine you're playing this KNOWING you will bubble - so now, knowing that you WILL bubble near the end - how will you play this A4 suited in mid position with 50 players to the money - will you just limp meekly again hoping to flop a flush draw you can push all in on? - or will you try to bet and pick up some blinds for the fight.

That sort of thing - but I've sorta been on hiatus - as winter comes in and I get my PC hooked up to my new 55 inch TV, I'm gonna focus on playing one tournament at time and re-building my reputation.

I think my weak-tight play may have been ok about 3 years ago - not stellar but I did ok in small fields - but I think my luck factor goes way up in larger fields and I need more to compensate for it - Nothing wrong with waiting for a big hand to make money - but if you can't outlast swings of luck - it's no good.

RB

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's all about no fear, because if you play scared, you will continue to barely eeek into the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true. My first 20 or so MTTs, I felt great because I would finish 140th and get into the money and receive $40.

Now, I am often bust before the 4th break because I'm trying to win it, not make $40.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

Remember that the strength of your hands increases late in tournaments. Top pair suddenly becomes more powerful, because more people are bluffing/stealing.

Use that to your advantage. Be the bluffer/stealer. Otherwise, we're all just playin the cards.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

It's been said, but it really is all about going for broke rather than just trying to squeak in.. Now when I bust early I'm okay with it because I made a move that could have put me in a good spot..because tournament structures really only favor like the FT.. all the other places just barely get your money back or give you like 20 dollars back for 4 hours work.. so might as well go for it..

In regards to opening up your game, I still recommend tight early/middle.. gap concept all that stuff, then open up late or if you have a bigger stack or when nobody has opened the pot.. lots of stealing late when people are playing uber-tight on the bubble/just past the bubble, just have to find good situations.

All that said, my MTT game sucks too, but will try to get it goin in November.

I\'m not an MTT guru, I have some advice anyway; take with salt.
 

This is just some advice on learning smart NL MTT aggression when you have a Limit background. I won't swear to a lack of aggression being your leak, but that seems to be the prevailing wind.

I think a good way to learn aggression is to play some SNGs.
Try and show a profit over 100 11$ NL SNGs on Party, I think that would help you a lot because doing so requires some aggression. The 2+2 STT forum has some serious talented posters.

Also, while Super/System might help you with your situation, though it should be taken with caution.

And maybe try out the new deep stacks on Stars, the added wiggle room might be a good place to develop some creativity and make you less reluctant to put in some raises.

a few stats
 

a couple of records - if it matters -

I have played 194 tourneys this year, placed in the money in 26 of them, and am running at a deficit of approx. 4K for the year in them overall -

about 2K I can attribute to overplaying my bankroll and playing something like a $540 Bellagio tourney on vacation knowing I didn't have enough scratch to play that - that's a leak I'm plugging and that's why I keep records - In fact, most of my big tourney entries were live entries which is interesting cause that live stuff sucks for blind levels/speed/and time spent.

I've never understood how I could be so scared of the $215 on Sundays at Pokerstars but be willing to cough up $225 over two days for a live tourney that will be much less rewarding to talent and be more dependant on luck -

I had two wins - 58 and 17 players - I had four 2nd place finishes but two of them were less then 40 players and the other two were 70 and 150 players. I do see where 4 of my top 10 wins this year were live (and by top 10 I mean the 12th is under a $100 bucks) - maybe that's why I cough up that much for it. -

and maybe I did so well in Live tourneys was because I was usually drinking in them if they were in Vegas. I always thought that unlocked my skill a bit - maybe that was where I got more aggressive. I gotta harness that.

Much reflection will be required but I must try to nap before work - please keep posting, guys...thanks.

RB

Re: a few stats
 

I have`nt masses of experience, but ran dry for a while because I suddenly lost heart and overrated my self. Had a few back to back good cashes. I reran those just lately, and I keep a diary going when I play, commenting on my decisions. My best results comes when I play fearless and trust my decisions and reads. Then if I missread a situation that is what I`ll work on, but I feel good about my game because I acted in accordance with a plan and based my play on thought trough decissions. I go deep or bust

For what it is worth

Stokken

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

Well a thing i've noticed lately is, emotions have a great deal to do with how you do in tournaments.. if you're depressed/nervous/anxious in the tournament, it's not going to turn out well for you.. kind of a catch-22, because if you start winning, you're going to be feeling on top of the world, but if you're losing, it'll just be a downward spiral. So you gotta find times when you're up, and happy, and take those times to play. (This probably goes for all types of poker not just tournaments, but that's where i have the most experience with it)

As for your psych. problem with betting, i dunno what to tell you.. just try it. You'll see that you take down pots uncontested way more than you think, and once you start, you'll get used to it and it'll be second nature to bet into the J42 board w/ your 66.

I probably missed some other points in there, i'll re-read it and post anything else if i think of it.

-Ray

Re: a few stats
 

If it's a factor, go below your usual stakes to learn to open up. When the money isn't a big deal (I find), you can learn to push harder for that big stack. This may not be a factor for you, though, it just helped me out.

Aggression really is the key to tournaments. If you can't bet pocket 6s on a J24 flop with a smile on your face, you aren't playing nearly as strong as you should. Steal blinds, pop out continuation bets even if you miss whenever you raised and there aren't too many players in with you. If there is a big stack at your table LAGing it up, don't sit around waiting to get a few BBs off him with aces or kings - let him know that he may able to knock the table around, but not you. Let people know that you're out for their chips. You play a lot of poker and know a lot of strategy. You should be able to apply it, even if it pains you at times. Make the right moves, and eventually you'll get used to it. If you set out to dominate a tournament, with some luck that can happen. If you load up Stars and you are worried about one possible problem or another, you won't be aggressive enough to consistently win big.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

I can empathize with your post. I have experienced marathon sessions of failure @ MTT. To the point that I was losing all the money I won on 1/200 sng's and 1/2 cash games to my MTT habit.

The one item I read in your post that stuck out and seemed to resonate as a very large road block to your success, was your aversion to get your money in the middle.

"I'm so scared of getting re-raised/bluffed off a hand I'd rather check/call so I know exactly every action how much it'll cost me to do -"

IMO, this is the exact opposite of the attitude required to win. I think you should look for opportunities to get as much money in the middle as possible. If you are check calling, you should only be doing that in order to build their commitment to a later street reraise.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
and I tried to tell myself - "Imagine you're playing this KNOWING you will bubble - so now, knowing that you WILL bubble near the end - how will you play this A4 suited in mid position with 50 players to the money - will you just limp meekly again hoping to flop a flush draw you can push all in on? - or will you try to bet and pick up some blinds for the fight.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're limping with A4s late in a tournament, that's probably your leak. As the blinds go up and the tournament field grows smaller, most players go to one of two extremes. Either they become super tight, trying to eek out a little more money, or they become super aggressive trying to constantly steal the blinds.

In my experience, you need to try and figure out which category the players at your table fall into. At the very least you need to try and figure out the goals of the players two to your left and two to your right. Find out who is playing passive, and punish them mercilessly. Then find out who is getting out of line, and come over the top of them with your legitimate hands.

It's tough to put an exact finger on it though, the best thing I can say is keep at it. I was in the same boat as you for a LONG time where I would cash in my fair share of tournaments, but if I went deep it was because the deck ran over me. Eventually after you get some experience with it and get deep a few times it starts to come together, and your results improve.

Good luck, and post some hands from times you get deep into tournaments (if you don't already) for review.

-Rizen

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well a thing i've noticed lately is, emotions have a great deal to do with how you do in tournaments.. if you're depressed/nervous/anxious in the tournament, it's not going to turn out well for you.. kind of a catch-22, because if you start winning, you're going to be feeling on top of the world, but if you're losing, it'll just be a downward spiral. So you gotta find times when you're up, and happy, and take those times to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true. Keep a clear head and have confidence in your ability and you will find decisions will come much easier.

Also, look for good situations, not just good cards. This is especially true in the middle and late stages of tournaments. When you can take away a pot, do so. You cannot wait around to make the best hand because you will not do so often enough to win.

Play like you don't care about going broke and your results will improve tremendously.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

I haven't read the responses, but here is my suggestion. In the next few days or weeks, depending on how often you play, and the next 5 times you get fairly deep into a tournament with a medium-sized stack, make a play that you consider reckless and would not even have thought about making before. See which of these plays work and which don't.

Example: You are on button with 56s. CO min raises preflop, and you triple his raise. SB pushes in and you are pot committed and have to call. He has AK. Sometimes you suck out here and sometimes you don't.

This exercise will
1) help you grow a pair of balls
2) help you learn in which situations thes plays are more effective

Re: a few stats
 

It's hard to tell from these two posts, but it sounds like you are too weak/tight in general and too passive late. Those are not horrible weaknesses in low limit ring, but they're really bad in MTT's. Aggro players eat you alive midgame and on the bubble, which is why you're not finishing deep.

The #1 thing that helped my game this year is learning when to resteal. You know the Gap Concept and so does every other decent player, so figure out people's likely ranges when they open UTG and when they open in LP. Also figure out when a minraise is a big hand and when it's trash. You should be taking down so many pots from repushing with stuff like A8o and QT into the right people at the right times that in many tournaments, you won't need to straight steal at all.

If you never limped once after level 3, you'd probably come out ahead, too.

Me, I take coin flips when the money is exponential
 

Lots of good advice on this thread. I think a lot of it can be summed up in the now oft quoted phrase "you gotta be willing to die in order to live".

Personally, I think of it this way-
Let's say I'm in a $20 MTT and 41-50 pay $25.00 and there are 100 players left and I'm in 45th chip position - so I don't have much $Equity yet. However, if I double-up my $Equity will way more than double since now I'll have a top 10 stack and a shot at top 3 money which is where the big $ is at - so I'm really not adverse to taking coinflip/neutral EV gambles in this situation. I probably don't cash as much as a lot of players, but I bet my FT% is higher than most (not withstanding the times I fold QQ PF [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]). IMO you have to swing for the fences and hit a few homeruns to be a long-term MTT winner - I don't think you can be a substantial winner hitting just singles and doubles once in a while.

I'd like to hear if others agree or not.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

Here is my simple advice:

If you want to become a better MTT player you need to focus on your game.

Here is how I would go about focusing.

Only play one site - IMO the sites have a very different feel to them during each phase of the tournament. Party rewards tighter play due to the lack of antes and 10 handed. You will learn the rhythm of the tournament you pick.
I'm not suggesting forever, just for now.

Only play one game at a time - If you have more than one game open you aren't really concentrating on the players and the table. Most of your actions are reflex, some of these reflex actions are preventing you from being a better player.

Tighten the ship - Probably the lowest hanging fruit is bet size. We (most of us) struggle over getting 2-5% advantage in the hand, but don't worry about 1/4XBB in a 20XBB pot when we bet. In cases where you have the best hand, if villain calls you may have bet too little, and if he folds the reverse. Look at all the areas in HOH (I just read the first page of the chapter).

Review your game - Go over your HH no matter how tedious and painful to see where you donked off chips. I'd start by just looking at hands where you won or lost 10% of your stack and look for improvements. If you have questions, post.

Play less not more - I think the above formula can improve any player and has nothing to do with playing alot. I suspect that most online players have a serious addiction problem, and that multitabling MTT is EV-- for all but the best players who have better honed skills, instincts, and MANAGE their multitabling. (although it does reduce variance).

GL.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

Excellent post, locutus, really top notch.

Re: a few stats
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you never limped once after level 3, you'd probably come out ahead, too.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll also add, If you never cold called you would probably come out ahead as well.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

Playing tight aggressive does not mean you have to only play the top 20% of hands. I will open with pure junk sometimes just because I figure my image can handle it and I will only get played back at with the top 10% in hands. When you open raise almost every single time, the amount of hand reading you have to do is reduced to either knowing if they have a pocket pair or knowing if they have high cards.

I've only just started consistently making it deep, but most of the reason that I've been doing that is because I'm building a stack by not allowing my bad hands to make it to showdown. I actually enjoy playing out of position against raises because most people are so timid that they are not willing to bluff people out of the pot. You can scare people out of a LOT of money by calling in the SB or BB against a MP raise,calling the flop and leading the turn on a board you don't think they hit. The key of this is knowing when they will believe you.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

I know psychology has a lot to do with it, but most of my latest tourneys I've been in a good mood - off the sauce and just generally looking for a nice 2K win - I don't need $800000, just something so I don't end up pumping $200-300/month into online accounts for $10 tourneys.

RB

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

This may come as a shock to you, but limping off with a4 mp suited or not is extremely loose. I'm amazed at how many people think they play tight, but when you see their play you see why they lose and it's not because they play too tight or not agressive enough.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

I couldn't disagree more with some of the "you must be more aggressive" advice in here. Learning to be a better small stack player is much more important. And when you do that, then you don't have to play outside your game and be over-aggressive.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's all about no fear, because if you play scared, you will continue to barely eeek into the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true. My first 20 or so MTTs, I felt great because I would finish 140th and get into the money and receive $40.

Now, I am often bust before the 4th break because I'm trying to win it, not make $40.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to about 9 or 10 final tables in big tourneys(by big I mean buy ins of over $150 and fields of over 1000). In at least 5 of those 10, I was the shortest stack at my table for the majority of the final few hours.

I've also entered the final table as the short stack at least 3 or 4 times, and in each of those times I've made the final 5.

I don't say all this to brag...I say this to debunk the myth that you need to accumulate chips around the bubble stage in order to win big in a tourney.

As long as you can steal the blinds once every round, you can play forever no matter your stack size. If I have 6-10x BB I am perfectly content with that and I feel as if I can stay at 6-10x BB throughout the tourney.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

I actually am a great small stack player - (lots of practice) and I can usually nurse one from about the halfway point to the end if needbe -

but what happens is that inevitibly I find myself in a 60/40 postion I can't win - can't win coin flips forever - and it'd be nice to have enough chips to survive one or two -

RB

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know psychology has a lot to do with it, but most of my latest tourneys I've been in a good mood - off the sauce and just generally looking for a nice 2K win - I don't need $800000, just something so I don't end up pumping $200-300/month into online accounts for $10 tourneys.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

When you are busting out of these touraments is there a trend? ie. are you calling off your chips? are you bluffing off your chips? are getting blinded off?

Are you stealing enough? Are you trying to steal too much? Do you take position into account? Do you mix up your play? Do you shift gears? Do you take reveased implied odds into account? Do you ever call bluff? Do you play a random hand every now and then? How well do you defend? Can you put down a good hand? How do you do in single table SNG's? Is NL HE your best game? if not, what is?

Sorry if this is too many questions.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

regarding the circumstance - it was an example - not gospel -

if I'm in mid with no people at all and a less then average stack it's a raise sometimes - if I'm short stacked it's an all-in - I tend not to do it with limpers, esp. EP limpers

RB

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-bah
 

There was a period of time not so long ago when I was going through a horrible cold spell. It started with an extreme run of bad luck, big favorites getting drawn out on repeatedly. Invariably, this had an effect on my game, as I suddenly became much more passive. Instead of forcing them to make bad plays without the odds, I was letting them off cheap, and then paying them off.

One of the things I did to correct this was to find a perverse sense of joy in bluffing a hand. For my personality, this wasn't a very difficult thing to force myself to do - I think I'm smarter than everyone else, and nothing beats profiting on the misfortune of others - but I really focused on it. Of course, I had to make sure I kept myself in check, and did not let this get out of control.

I think for any player, there is a way you can safely force yourself to become more aggressive at the table. You just have to find that one out on your own.

Yeah, sorry for the cliche there at the end.

Oh, and locutus' advice is also very good.

Re: I throw myself at the mercy of the MTT forum. Help an old pooh-ba
 

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you can steal the blinds once every round, you can play forever no matter your stack size. If I have 6-10x BB I am perfectly content with that and I feel as if I can stay at 6-10x BB throughout the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes that's quite a tautology, but obviously you can't always steal the blinds once around because sooner or later, you are going to get called. You will win sometimes of course, but if you are pushing often enough to win the blinds once a round, you are usually going to be an underdog when called. Also, if you are just surviving with 6-10x the BB, the blinds are going to go up and suddenly you're going to have 3-7x the BB or whatever.

You are correct of course that it's easy to take the aggression thing too far, but it's also certainly true that you do need to adjust your aggression upwards as your stack slips to 15-20x the BB.