Bet out or check/call the river?
 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG (poster) raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero......?

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

you gonna fold to a raise? im not, so i check call.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you gonna fold to a raise? im not, so i check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not fold to a raise.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

I couldn't have not check/raised that flop.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

Seems like an easy bet/call. I wouldn't be too thrilled with calling a CO raise, but this pot is effing huge. I'd also probably check/raise the flop. I think going for a turn check/raise here is really risky and that UTG checks something like AJ and makes you puke too often.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't have not check/raised that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm asking about the river play here, not the flop play.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG (poster) raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero......?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with the flop play?

On the river, I would bet-call. Do you think UTG post-raised with a 9 or a 4 (and would 3-bet the turn with those hands - maybe it's T9, but that's doubtful)? If anything, it looks like an overplayed overpair.

I have no idea what CO is doing, but he doesn't get credit for a straight because he couldn't fold on the turn.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't have not check/raised that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm asking about the river play here, not the flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but the flop error is larger than the potential river error.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but the flop error is larger than the potential river error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking for another long-winded debate over c/raising the flop. We've had enough of those threads over the years. I'm asking if I should bet out/call or check/call the river.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't have not check/raised that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm asking about the river play here, not the flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet/call the river.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

I think you bet out. You can fold to two bets back to you, and easily call one from UTG. If UTG calls and CO raises, you could almost fold., but I don't think I could make myself do it.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

i'll bet/call that river. those people really suck unless they have pocket 9s to be calling down with a straight draw here. you'll see 2 pair, and lower sets here enough times.

Flop comments in white so you don't have to read them if you don't want: <font color="white">not bet/3-betting(the new c/r) that flop gives these sucky gutshots very nice odds which is why even if they would have called all that betting on a gutshot or something, at least it would have been done "incorrectly".</font>

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

that flop is not very scary. I would rather check raise and trap the gutshots in than face them with 2 cold.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

I'd bet/call. If the CO raises I can't see you being good but you gave no reads so I call.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that flop is not very scary. I would rather check raise and trap the gutshots in than face them with 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

more flop comments in white: <font color="white"> yes but pot is big enough to fight for and they might cold call 2 here like they did preflop because the board isn't scary and get us more money. if they fold their gutshot, that's fine too.</font>

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

c/r flop

for value, because he'll never give you credit for a set, and because check calling the flop to check raise the turn is risky and stupid when it could get checked through

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what CO is doing, but he doesn't get credit for a straight because he couldn't fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Aaron... Would you care to elaborate a little on that sentence?

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

I don't like this at all. You don't raise the flop against 3 opponents? Raise this. You have 3 callers ahead of you and they will all call your raise. Build the pot.

Then a 7 falls on the turn which helps an already fairly-coordinated board and now you cap? Against the same amount of opponents as on the flop? This just isn't it at all.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but the flop error is larger than the potential river error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking for another long-winded debate over c/raising the flop. We've had enough of those threads over the years. I'm asking if I should bet out/call or check/call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't have your cake and eat it too. The flop play is godawful. Don't discard everyone telling you to C/R the flop. Check/calling is the worst thing you can do here on this flop. Well, I guess Check/folding would be worse. But not much.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

there's almost no way hero is up against a straight on the turn, and there's no reason why he shouldn't cap the turn.

i agree that check calling the flop is a disaster, but capping the turn is far and away the best move.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

With a 6,7,8 out there you want to cap this against 3 opponents??? Really?

Even if it's the right move, it doesn't mesh with his flop play. I just don't understand why he doesn't raise the flop against 3 easy callers, yet goes nuts on the turn against the same amount of callers?

I think he's being greedy here by going for the added value of the turn raises. But I think it's too costly to give 3 opponents a cheap turn card.

Re: Bet out or check/call the river?
 

It's clear you don't like the flop play. We should still attempt to make the best decisions on the last two streets.


We are still ahead the vast majority of the time on the turn so all bets have a great equity edge, thus he was right to cap it here. Worst case we still have 9 boat re-draw outs even against an unlikely straight.