clangs
 

I'm playing a lot of shorthanded these days. I'm in my best-ever mental and physical shape, playing in the toughest player pool I've ever swam in. It is war, and peace, together.

And I do love my enemies. And music is made from the clangs of our swords ...

Five-handed $80-160. I was on the button with ten-eight sooted. UTG limped, the cutoff folded, I raised, the small blind folded and the BB called. Threeway. The flop was Q-7-4 rainbow. Checked around. The turn card paired the four, and it put a backdoor flush on board (not my suit). The big blind bet, the limper folded, and I called. The river was a jack. He checked, I bet, and he folded.

Re: clangs
 

so was this your plan when you checked the flop?

don't you think you have a better chance of winning 6 sb's on the flop for the price of 1SB, than you do of winning 4BBs for 2BBs? or is that extra BB just too juicy to pass up?

Re: clangs
 

i guess your play is fine, but i would much rather just bet the flop and take it down with the worst hand.

Re: clangs
 

I'm playing a lot of full ring these days. I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life; I couldn't feel better. The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace. The taste of delicious, partially hydrogenated cookies filled my mouth. The action was folded to me; I look down at AK in the cutoff and raise. The button and big blind call. The flop comes, 862, rainbow. It's checked to me, and I bet. Everyone folds.

Victory.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace.
...
Everyone folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life

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i'd say

Re: clangs
 

i think this hand is above my level of thinking, but why not just bet the flop?

when you call the turn, are you planning to raise the river if bet into, or did you anticipate this river check?

Re: clangs
 

This must be why you like the button so much.

Re: clangs
 

This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

Re: clangs
 

go deeper into the hand.
1. desribe your opponnent
2. describe his state of mind
3. describe some previous hands you played with him
4. what is your current image in the game
5. are you winning or losing at this point
6. is your opponennt winning or losing
7. what were his mannerisms on the turn when he bet; something must have told you he didn't have it and to call there.
8. is he type to bet with bad hands and check with good hands
9. Is he the type that never checkraises and this is the reason why you bet?

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me, but if this is the case, isn't the play to raise, so we don't give him the chance to catch something on the river?

I could understand the call better if we have a hand worthy of showdown, but we don't.

Surely, we're not trying to squeeze another bet out of him by waiting until he bets the river to bluff raise?

Someone tell me what I'm missing. If it's a "you don't play this high so you wouldn't understand thing," at the very least let me know.

-McGee

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then is there any reason we don't raise the turn?
-James

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing a lot of full ring these days. I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life; I couldn't feel better. The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace. The taste of delicious, partially hydrogenated cookies filled my mouth. The action was folded to me; I look down at AK in the cutoff and raise. The button and big blind call. The flop comes, 862, rainbow. It's checked to me, and I bet. Everyone folds.

Victory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant

Re: clangs
 

Remember, it takes a bigger hand to call than it does to raise. Assume everyone at the table knows this. Tommy's call on the turn would be very ominous to the right kind of observant player, especially one who happens to be bluffing. Ironically, a raise in this spot can suggest weakness, whereas a call suggests, "give yourself a bit more rope, buddy." Sometimes, subtlety is more effective than aggression; just another way of playing poker. As the saying goes, "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail."

Re: clangs
 

bet the flop. raise the turn.

i miss bison.

Re: clangs
 

I'm not sure if I understand; why not raise the turn?

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then is there any reason we don't raise the turn?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

If our opponent is on a draw then he'll call and we have to follow through on the river. Seems like this is a cheaper way to get the same result, and we can only put in the second bet when our opponent misses his draw and checks the river.

Re: clangs
 

I prefer calling to raising as well against the type of opponent I think this is. He won't continue a bluff on the river, and he will likely view a turn raise with more suspicion than a turn call (and with good reason). When you just call the turn on this board, it looks like you just want a showdown.

Re: clangs
 

Excellent observation, rowboat. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: clangs
 

Flop checked around, the board pairs and BB bets out. I suspect if Tommy raised, due to the quality of opponent, he would get re-raised a decent amount, as BB knows Tommy knows that BB is bluffing a lot here.

Like the other guy said, the call here is sometimes more scary and looks like some slowplay. The problem is the BB will follow through on river due to the flush draw (he will hope Tommy has it and will fold river), but here he didn't so the river plays itself.

Re: clangs
 

awesome!

Re: clangs
 

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I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

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Are you serious?

Re: clangs
 

Raising the turn is not really believable. We checked the flop and now the 4 comes off. That couldn't have helped our hand. Villian may call and lead a blank river, thinking we have overcards/a busted bdflush.

Also, villian may have a made hand. Raising the turn commits us to 2 bets. If villian calls the turn raise, we have to guess whether or not he was on a draw. We may fire another bet at the river, only to find out he had a made hand. However, if we call the turn bet, and villian leads the river, we can fold, and our play costs 1 bet. If he checks, we can now steal this pot at a greater success rate than the turn raise. This is especially true if a high card comes off on the river.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
go deeper into the hand.
1. desribe your opponnent
2. describe his state of mind
3. describe some previous hands you played with him
4. what is your current image in the game
5. are you winning or losing at this point
6. is your opponennt winning or losing
7. what were his mannerisms on the turn when he bet; something must have told you he didn't have it and to call there.
8. is he type to bet with bad hands and check with good hands
9. Is he the type that never checkraises and this is the reason why you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

This post was awful. And i like tommy's posts. Cmon at least give some reasoning or something. I can talk about big Ace high calls i made (in NL), but noone cares unless there is a specific (and good) reason for the play. I really would like these 9 questions to be answered.

Re: clangs
 

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

Re: clangs
 

it's as if some people responding to tommy's posts have spent zero time sitting at a poker table and studying how a game can flow, and all their time in some realm where poker rules and strategies exist, but the game is never actually played against thinking opponents.

it's a lot harder for a bluff to work when it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Re: clangs
 

im with you on this one tommy.

couple weeks ago. i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

Re: clangs
 

I hope Tommy's critics read his post carefully. Each paragraph.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope Tommy's critics read his post carefully. Each paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

tommy has critics?



anyways, i think calling the turn is much better than raising it.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt looking good for you bob...

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's as if some people responding to tommy's posts have spent zero time sitting at a poker table and studying how a game can flow, and all their time in some realm where poker rules and strategies exist, but the game is never actually played against thinking opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! It's called 8-tabling.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
The river was a jack. He checked, I bet, and he folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is you were bluffing with the best hand. Figure an Ace would call the river, since his kicker shouldn't matter. So do you get K-high and Ten-hand hands to fold, I would guess yes on Ten high to avoid splits for sure. TA will have to give us a guess at K-highs for his opponent.

For a post called clang there doesn't seem to be a lot of thrust and parry going on, or even swings. Seems more like a duel where you each take your turn firing your 1 shot.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt looking good for you bob...

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ahhahahahahahahah
haha
ha
good one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is an example of what? If you say your called the flop planning to steal on the turn...OK...I guess, but I don't understand the flop call unless you have opponent specific knowledge. Or didja put him on 5-high?

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]


anyways, i think calling the turn is much better than raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain Chris?

Re: clangs
 

"I don't understand the flop"

what i held didnt matter. i decided on the flop there was a strong chance he did not have a K or a Q, given the openraising hand range a sb non-chopper typically has is huge, much larger than online where chopping is not an option. so all i needed to do was represent in his mind that i had one of those big cards. flat calling (as opposed to raising) the flop was the best way to do so.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
For a post called clang there doesn't seem to be a lot of thrust and parry going on, or even swings. Seems more like a duel where you each take your turn firing your 1 shot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Checks can be thrusts. Checks can be parries.

Re: clangs
 

I liked nfscreech's explication.

Re: clangs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I liked nfscreech's explication.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks; I missed it.