commerce 20-40NL
 

villian in the hand is hung law for those that recognize the name.
for those that don't he is an extremely good tournament player, and an extremely good cash game player, (top 50 past two years at WSOP, 4th in the 2005 LA poker classic wpt)
i play with him all the time and there is a deep mutual respect for each others game.

ok i'm in the BB w/~14K, villian has me covered.

really bad player limps UTG, villian calls in UTG+2, one LP limper i raise $300.

all limpers call.

flop is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1200).

i lead for 1K, bad player calls (this guy will chase any draw no matter the price, he has ~8K), villian makes it $2700 straight.

folded to me...

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

Your hand is important.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

your hand?

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

JJ

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

i'm goin with the underdog A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

that was my 2nd guess, or 33

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

why would he post this if he had 33?
looks like AA/KK.
extremely tough hand.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
JJ

[/ QUOTE ]
i think the same...

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

It was a joke. I think the hand is a lot harder if it's JJ than AA....

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
why would he post this if he had 33?
looks like AA/KK.
extremely tough hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this tough w/ AA?

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would he post this if he had 33?
looks like AA/KK.
extremely tough hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this tough w/ AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

look @ the stacks again

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

so riverboat has to call $1700 more?
[ QUOTE ]
$2700 straight

[/ QUOTE ]

And I agree completely with AZK. JJ/TT sucks here compared to AA - but we don't know about villain.


Villain could be raising with any overpair. If it's 1700 to call would he do this with 22? Makes sense if he thinks you are coming with something strong from the blinds, and donkey with his draw.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

This is a REALLY tough hand with AA OOP. Why would villian pop it to only $2700 with a worse hand if villian puts bad player on a flush draw? It looks like he is trying to price both of you in with 22. Villian knows hero has a big hand if he's raising to 7.5x out of the blinds.

Something stinks about villian's play.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

would Villian limp with pocket 2's UTG+1? I could see him holding A5 of diamonds with the gut and draw to nut flush.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

I doubt villian opens himself up for C/R when he's in position and all he has is a draw on a paired board. If that was the case I'm sure he'd bump it to like $3500 - $4000 IMO.

I see a flat call even from 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

He's good. This is scary.

Oh yeah, do you have cards?

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

It's funny how many replies there are already w/o even knowing OP's cards lmao. For all we know, Hero has 33.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
villian in the hand is hung law

[/ QUOTE ]

this cat got me to fold QQ preflop at shooting stars this year. still eats at me a bit.

link

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how many replies there are already w/o even knowing OP's cards lmao. For all we know, Hero has 33.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, i'm curious about hero's cards.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villian in the hand is hung law

[/ QUOTE ]

this cat got me to fold QQ preflop at shooting stars this year. still eats at me a bit.

link

[/ QUOTE ]

tourney poker is lame, you should've called.

my hand
 

duh! sorry...its Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

Call, pot blank turn (no diamond, no A or 6) and fold to a turn raise? If a diamond hits, I think I just give up. If I pot turn and he calls, I think I check, evaluate his river bet.

Re: my hand
 

He's good, this is scary.

I think a big draw makes a bigger raise, but for some kind of moderate draw this seems a big enough raise to buy him a free turn. So this is either strictly for value w 22 or you have to make him pay to draw - either right now or by leading a blank turn big.

I think it very unlikely he's testing you with a pair like TT - as I think he would raise PF to isolate bad limper and his 8K.

I think I call and lead a blank turn.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

is he tricky enough to have AA/KK here? limp in early looking to re-pop it, but when you put in such a big pfr from the bb he now decides to trap. just a thought...

the size of his raise is tough to figure too, only 1700 more on top of 4200 already in the pot: it looks equally possible to be a raise wanting action, or to be a raise by a draw. extremely tough spot...i'd prob'ly fold here cuz there are a ton of turn cards that you would hate to see, and if you're already beat it could cost you another 11k to find out. (i think pushing might be better than calling, but i don't like pushing either, so i fold.)

another thing this hand illustrates is how being oop really sucks, cuz if you just call, he's dictating this hand now; he gets to decide how big to make the pot on the turn, whether to take a free card, etc.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call, pot blank turn (no diamond, no A or 6) and fold to a turn raise? If a diamond hits, I think I just give up. If I pot turn and he calls, I think I check, evaluate his river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems many are forgetting the UTG bad player who is still in the hand and called my 1K rather quickly.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

But you portray UTG as bad enough to call with a huge range here - Is he calling your flop bet w 88/99? I guess your line depends on just how bad he is.

And FWIW, I don't mind a fold here - I'd rather not play a big pot OOP with one pair against one of the best players in that game - but your current roll is bigger than mine.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

Any chance he is trying to blow you out and get it heads up with UTG since you both probably know UTG will call any draw for any amount of money? It's such a tiny raise, that's what's so weird about it.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

Ya i did forget the coldcaller. I think its even more likely that Hung (hehe im still a 5 year old at heart) is f.o.s and knows he can outplay or just outbet the bad player when the bad player misses his draw by the river. I think this makes his hand range quite a bit bigger, like 44-TT). Maybe this means repoping it to 8k straight is the better answer. I guess this commits us to a push unless you can manage to get away from a allin for 6k more. Would he do that with a draw? If he would, call obv.

However, you could still call and see where you're at on the turn. Same cards are scray as the BP is drawing to one of them. SO without committing 8k on the flop, and without folding, Ill go with a flat call and lead on the turn for 6k if a blank hits. I think if he pushes there I could find a fold for my last 6k.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

rbk,

couple of thoughts....

this is the kind of flop I like to check out of position if I'm heads-up and sometimes even if it's 3-way.....4-way you're not thrilled to give a free card, so a bet works okay....as for the bet amount, I might've bet either less or more.....betting $600 accomplishes basically the same thing as $1000 does, OR, I even like a bet of like $1500-2000 to see really what's up - now you're really charging the fish if he wants to chase you with position, and you'll find out a hell of a lot about the tough player's holding.....

anyway, given how it did actually play out, a couple questions come to mind.....like la said, what does the amount of villain's raise mean - what is your read?....is this a rockcrusher or a feeler?.....remember also that he raised a bet and a call (how might that affect what he might do?).....also, what does UTG look like? - is he reaching for chips or was he pissed that he has to put more money in the pot?.....

I'd say that probably the textbook thing to do here is fine - folding probably doesn't lose much in the long haul or call the raise and lead out BIG on the turn.....but if you have a good read otherwise, either save your chips or even give'em the bomb now.....

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

WTF does that 1/3 pot raise mean? Is he trying to freeze you or milk you?

I'm inclined to make it 6 to go. Or call and lead the turn for 5k. Ugh. Maybe not. I dunno. Hands like this against tough players suck. Good post.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

UTG really screws up the dynamic, I thought about the 3bet on the flop, but it sounds like UTG will literally call anything, if that's the case you pot stick yourself when you 3bet, UTG calls and now villain really can put you in a jam....

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
WTF does that 1/3 pot raise mean? Is he trying to freeze you or milk you?



[/ QUOTE ]

thats what makes this villian such a godamn pain in the ass to play against.
it could mean a number of things.
bascially i ruled out AA/KK as i don't think he wants to play a big multi-way pot w/those two.

at the time it seemed like he wanted to get control of the hand and not be faced with a really tough call on the turn if i fire again at what would be >4K pot.

i figured there was a good chance he had JJ-99 or AK/AJ of diamonds.
however there was also the possiblity that he had the underfull.

thats what is so great about his raise...he is only risking $2700 but in effect he's raising me 5-6K if i want to play the pot because he knows i can't just smooth call with the UTG calling station still involved.

i really hate good players fxxking with my bottom line.

ps. i guess a stop and go would have been a viable line, and i'm a little baffled as to why i never considered it.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]

i really hate good players fxxking with my bottom line.


[/ QUOTE ]

what, you mean like... playing poker? yeah it's a b*tch.

that being said - if he does have the underfull... if you were to use a stop and go he would very easily be able to smooth call the turn and get your stack in the middle given the ginormous size of the pot. so it seems like you have to decide whether it's worth it or not to continue, but i think this spot is just tough given the stacks, even a stop and go would likely commit you.

i really like coltrane's point - this is a great flop to mix it up by not firing out pot... i personally might consider a stop and go from the get go by checking the flop then leading the turn hard. especially since there's so little they actually could have hit, so stop and go is a nice way to control pot size if they have a monster, to get a bet on the flop from weaker pocket pairs, and to let them bluff the flop when they've completely missed.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

maybe i'm weak but i like checking these flops out of position esepcially when there is someone who will call a lot and someone who will make my life a living hell to act after me.

checking and seeing what develops helps avoid these kind of sticky situations and controls the size of the pot.

as you played it i'd call the raise and bet a blank turn.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

i don't really like the idea of checking this flop given the fact that there are three other players in the pot, and this is one of the nicest looking flops for QQ OOP.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really like the idea of checking this flop given the fact that there are three other players in the pot, and this is one of the nicest looking flops for QQ OOP.




[/ QUOTE ]

unless of course there is a very aggressive player in the pot whom i can count on to make a bet. which in this case there wasn't.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

I'm checking that flop like never in this spot. Especially given who's in there with you.

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

once bad player called pf everyone else is priced in

his raise seems to be telling you that it doesn't matter what you have

fold

if he showed down jacks here i don't sweat it

Results?
 

I'm now very curious about the results.

From Hung Law's POV, you probably wouldn't raise out of the blinds with anything that the flop would nail you hard with such as 22 or A3. Or maybe you would, who knows? Would Hung call with a hand like A3s?

It's possible he has an overpair like you, or he could have an underfull or a 3. The price of his raise is beautiful. You're at a loss of what to do with your hand and are seduced to play it passively, which probably makes you cringe knowing you prefer to be the aggressor. If you commit more by calling and leading a blank turn, Hung will simply dump all overpairs that QQ beats. But if he actually has quads, an underfull or a single 3, watch out! If you call the flop, check and he bets the turn, then what? Ack!

I don't think dumping this hand would be the worse thing in the world. I'm just now curious what you actually did and the results.

Garland

Re: commerce 20-40NL
 

What up rbk,

Interesting post as always. Couple of things:

--My thought is that he's got a fairly good hand and that he wants to know for sure what's going on with the bad player. He knows it puts you in a very tough spot, and if you get out, any middling pair is probably not too hard to play vs. a bad player OOP. Obviously, though, it could also be a boat, in which case he's thinking mostly about the bad player's money, since he's positive that raise will be called.

--I hate a stop and go, here, because who does this with a hand stronger than Aces up? Pretty much nobody, right? You really invite a tough player to take the big pot away from you with anything that beats the bad player if you bet 6-7K on the turn. A flop pot re-raise has similar problems, unless you think you can get credit from Villain for possibly having a 3--otherwise, it just makes it easy for him to get it in with the nut flush draw or some other hands, knowing you will fold a fair amount of the time.

I know I'm at least calling this raise most always--I'm inclined to check a blank on the turn and reevaluate. More to say but I have to catch a flight.