Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

Please note that the events in question are not about me, but rather a friend (not a "friend", a friend).

This story begins over a year ago when Sean and Dave were roomates (names changed for confidentiality reasons). Sean owed Dave around $100 dollars. Sean decided it would be a good idea to let Dave use his party poker account to pay back the $100 (morons).

Dave racked up over $800 in losses on Sean's account. Needless to say, Sean was pissed. Dave and Sean worked it out, and Dave was to pay Sean the $700 in debt. That was over a year ago.

Since then, Sean has repeatedly pestered Dave about the aforementioned debt. Unfortunately, Sean lacks some of the resolve necessary to retrieve the aformentioned debt. He was unable to intimidate Dave into giving him the money. He spoke to the parents of Dave about the debt, explaining he did not want a bad situation to arise. The parents said they would talk to Dave. He has not heard anything more from them.

Sean has been trying to contact Dave for weeks now. In the past, when Sean talked to Dave, Dave would promise the money at some future date, but never deliver. Recently, Dave has been avoiding Sean, ignoring his calls, etc. Sean finally got through to Dave. Dave said, in short, "I dont have the money right now, what do you want me to do?" Needless to say, Sean is pissed.

Around this time, Sean realized he had the login information to Dave's online bank account (do not ask me how he got this, this story is ludicrous I know). Sean has come up with a rather risky idea.

Sean will wait til Dave has the required money in his account, deposit that money to party poker, transfer the money to his party poker account, then transfer the money to his neteller account.

What are the moral and legal ramifications of this situation. Also, does Sean HAVE to wait for the money to appear in Dave's account. I have noticed that at times when I use IGM pay, money will appear in my Party account but not be removed from my bank account for upwards of 4 days. If Sean can deposit on credit, then cashout, will Dave incur an overdraft fee? (Sweet revenge if so).

Finally, please note again that this is in no way me, and Sean does not even know I have posted this on 2+2 (nor does he to my knowledge know this forum exists).

Again, what are the moral and legal ramfications of Sean's intended actions.

Thank you for your time.

Edit: cross posted in oot

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

that is the worst idea i've ever heard

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

OOoo, easy.

Sean deposits with Dave's bank account without Dave's authorization = Sean goes to jail.

To me it just sounds like Sean made a mistake letting Dave use his Party account. Expensive lesson learned.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is the worst idea i've ever heard

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Responses
 

If you were a good poster, and you were to post strategy analysis, and simply put call/fold/raise etc, without any logical reasoning, it would be a poor post. The same applies here. I know its a bad idea, why or why not. What governing body will investigate/punish Sean? In what manner? Etc.

Thank you

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is the worst idea i've ever heard

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The worst? Are you sure?
http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/2...clusion0kb.jpg

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

Gamble up!

Transfer the money to Party but do not inter-account transfer it. Dump it in a big NL game to a 3rd party. No solid tracks now. Use the library computer. Overall risk? Medium, kinda like selling a pound of dope.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

People act like such tools, like $700 is an ungodly large sum of money, they're willing to ruin friendships and embarass the hell out of themselves and ruin their name over 700 bucks, sad.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you were a good poster, and you were to post strategy analysis, and simply put call/fold/raise etc, without any logical reasoning, it would be a poor post. The same applies here. I know its a bad idea, why or why not. What governing body will investigate/punish Sean? In what manner? Etc.

Thank you

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone posts a really dumb, obvious hand, we don't need to do strategy analysis. This is a very very bad idea. If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

i was in a similar situation with a kid who owed me about $1300. he had given me his email address password and after he ran his account up, i reset his password (i knew his address since i kenw him in real life) and took it all back. he had more in there and i gave his password to another friend who he also owed money to. he even called me the next day demanding i give it back!

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]


He spoke to the parents of Dave about the debt,



[/ QUOTE ]

Nuff said

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

I've known several people who have ended up in prison for reclaiming debts or property in similar, but less sophisticated, fashion. Each one was able to rationalize to himself that what he did was perfectly justifiable. Depending on what jurisdiction this is in and how far your friend's friend wants to push this, your friend could end up playing poker for cigarettes for 10-20 years.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dave's bank account transfers $700 to Daves party account, Sean is not incriminated. Do you see why?

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dave's bank account transfers $700 to Daves party account, Sean is not incriminated. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being an idiot. Do you see why?

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dave's bank account transfers $700 to Daves party account, Sean is not incriminated. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being an idiot. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dave's bank account transfers $700 to Daves party account, Sean is not incriminated. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being an idiot. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Dumbest Use of "Do You See Why" I've ever seen on 2+2.

2. Party Poker may be overseas, but they're not on Mars. I'm sure they cooperate with wire fraud investigations, and you're friend is going to inter-account transfer from Dave's Party Account to his own, thus incriminating himself. Not only that, but there's a log of all inter-account transfers, so Dave will be able to see where the money went, will know who has it, can simply call the police, and your friend is busted. Because this involves the transfer of funds across state lines, it is most likely a federal offense.

3. Finally, just because you were an idiot and let your friend play on your party poker account and run up $800 in losses does not mean that you have a legally enforceable debt against Dave. In fact, from what you wrote, I seriously doubt you do. Don't compound your earlier idiocy with a mistake you may regret for the rest of your life. It's only $700.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your friend is caught (and He will definitely be caught, since your other friend will call the bank, which will confirm that hte money was transferred to Party Poker) he will face criminal charges, possibly even federal charges because it might involve transactions across state lines and the wire act. He would almost certainly face some jail time. Not worth it for $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dave's bank account transfers $700 to Daves party account, Sean is not incriminated. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being an idiot. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Dumbest Use of "Do You See Why" I've ever seen on 2+2.

2. Party Poker may be overseas, but they're not on Mars. I'm sure they cooperate with wire fraud investigations, and you're friend is going to inter-account transfer from Dave's Party Account to his own, thus incriminating himself. Not only that, but there's a log of all inter-account transfers, so Dave will be able to see where the money went, will know who has it, can simply call the police, and your friend is busted. Because this involves the transfer of funds across state lines, it is most likely a federal offense.

3. Finally, just because you were an idiot and let your friend play on your party poker account and run up $800 in losses does not mean that you have a legally enforceable debt against Dave. In fact, from what you wrote, I seriously doubt you do. Don't compound your earlier idiocy with a mistake you may regret for the rest of your life. It's only $700.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the fact that he lost the money on Party that makes it enforceable. It's the fact that he (hopefully) signed a repayment agreement that makes it enforceable.

If he didn't, let it go... playing Spades for cigarettes for 20 years isn't exactly the ideal way to work on your chops.

Re: Responses
 

1) Agreed

2) What if Sean dumped Dave's online chips (using Dave's account) to a 3rd party as another poster suggested, using a library computer??

3) I am not Sean, merely a friend of his (not a great one at that). This post is purely for pentantic puposes.

To my knowledge no such form was signed.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the fact that he lost the money on Party that makes it enforceable. It's the fact that he (hopefully) signed a repayment agreement that makes it enforceable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, what do you think the odds are of that? I just assumed (I'm pretty sure correctly) based on the story that there was no written agreement.

Re: Responses
 

The odds of that are approximately one thousand to zero. That's right, a bet of zero dollars on Bender..err..the OP pays a thousand dollars if he wins. Still, not many takers.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Agreed

2) What if Sean dumped Dave's online chips (using Dave's account) to a 3rd party as another poster suggested, using a library computer??

3) I am not Sean, merely a friend of his (not a great one at that). This post is purely for pentantic puposes.

[/ QUOTE ]

2. You think this makes him uncatchable? Ok, so lets say Sean uses Dave's account to dump it to Scott. Scott takes a cut and gives the money to Sean. Dave sees that someone useed his account to withdraw money and play with it. He contacts the poker site. They see that the money was dumped mostly to one other player. Do you think that a huge sight like party poker doesn't know how to recognize chip dumping? So now Scott is implicated, and so is Sean, and on top of the underlying crime you can now add conspiracy. Look, there's certainly a chance that he can get away with it. Maybe even a good one depending on how much law enforcement will care. But your friend needs to figure out whether $700 is worth the chance of going to jail. This is definitely a crime.

Re: Responses
 

Good post. Exactly what I was looking for.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
2) What if Sean dumped Dave's online chips (using Dave's account) to a 3rd party as another poster suggested, using a library computer??

[/ QUOTE ]

You and your friends don't have much common sense.

Re: Responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Agreed

2) What if Sean dumped Dave's online chips (using Dave's account) to a 3rd party as another poster suggested, using a library computer??

3) I am not Sean, merely a friend of his (not a great one at that). This post is purely for pentantic puposes.

To my knowledge no such form was signed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not Dogmeat, really, so don't be offended. I am just using his account to tell you that when you turn thirteen, you will probably have enough sense to:

1) Realize how stupid you have been
2) Quit when you are behind
3) Understand that money in the pot is no longer yours
4) Get on with your life
5) Not post sht like this here - especially crossposted!@

Signed,

really, I'm not Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

I don't know what the current rate for common sense lessons is these days. But $700 for letting someone else use your poker account to allow that someone else try to pay back a $100 debt isn't all that steep.

Re: Responses
 

This is not TheHammer24, just a friend of his. I want to share his opinion with you on the matter. FWIW, there is a very high liklihood that this will work. This however does not make it a good idea. There is absolutely no way I risk the legal costs and the possible jail time, the head ache of always wondering if the Police are going to catch me is enough to not make me wnat to do it. But here's why it would most likely work:

1. Dave, realizing he owed him 700 dollars, may be a lot less likely to call the bank, call the police, etc. He got pwned, will realize this, and be done.

2. Law Enforcement Won't Care! 700 dollars! There are far more important money laundering cases out there. For them to invest resources into the investigation, court fees, public defender, etc. it would be easier to pay Dave the 700 dollars he lost.

3. Party Poker Barrier. Party Poker is not going to be super cooperative, and even if they were willing to help in an investigation, the police would be reluctant to go to them as they are over seas etc.

But that being said, don't do it. It's just stupid. Kick his ass and tell him to pay you. Morally, this is 100% justified, but in no way worth the headache.

Re: Responses
 

Why is it so hard to believe this is not me? Its not. End of story.

Re: Responses
 

Good post, thanks for a legit response (minus the annoying, and erroneous, mockery)

Re: Responses
 

Why doesnt Sean just kick Dave in the nuts?

Re: Responses
 

Man,

That is one of the dumbest ideas i've ever heard. First of all, you will be prosecuted.

Second of all, here in South Carolina, you most certainly would have your ass beat. Repeatedly.

What kind of a woman are you that you can't go get the money? If the guys owes you money you say "Hey bro, I want one hundred bucks a week for the next two months" If he doesn't pay, you steal some of his stuff and sell it.

You certainly don't defraud a bank. They will most certainly stick it in you and break it off.

Sigma

Re: Responses
 

Not to beat a dead horse, but resolving debt by letting someone play on your account is asking for trouble. I gave my friend my Party account info to let him play. He did, he lost, he gave me what he lost. Fine so far.
Couple days later suddenly there's about $70 discrepancy in the account. I asked him, and he said yeh I played a few tournaments last night. Now, he gave me the cash right away, but that's not the issue. I don't want to log-on just before a tournament I thought I had enough in which to play, find it's no longer there, and don't have free cash to throw in just then. He also played a few FPP freerolls w/o consulting me.
He gets pissed at me because I decided to go ahead and change my password. In short, think long and hard before you let someone play on your account.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

1. It's grand larceny and several other felonies and it can probably be proven. How high a risk of prosecution makes this plan -EV?

2. Party may detect the fraud before Sean gets the money out the door. Even if they don't, Dave will eventually tell them and Party will easily trace the money to Sean. Sean could be banned by Party and have his account balance seized. Party may also notify Neteller and that won't be pretty either. Sean might even wind up on some shared blacklist maintained by the online gambling community.

3. Someone might complain to Sean's parents.

4. Dave might think outside the procedural box and retaliate in some other fashion.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

I have painfully discovered that Poor Richard was right,

"Neither a borrower or lender be."!


[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Responses
 

Even if he HAD a legally enforceable debt, he is not entitled to, essentially, steal the money to repay the debt.

The bank cannot "repo" your car unless they go through certain procedures, like having you agree to that method in the original loan, and having the car serve as collateral for the loan.

Dave's bank account is not collateral for his loan.

If Sean walked into the open door of daves appartment, saw $700 lying there, and took it, he is still guilty of theft, and possibly burglary if he formed the intention of committing the theft prior to entry.

Outlaw street justice feels good, but its almost always illegal.

Re: Responses
 

It is probably true that you don't have a legally enforcable debt.

Morally, however, you have every right to take that money. If you could do it with no risk, I'd say go for it. Being that there is some risk, it would still be cool to do it, just be very very careful how you execute your plan so that it can't be traced to you. Obviously chip-dumping is a much better idea than a transfer(which would be idiotic).

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

doesnt "grand" larceny have a dollar limit?

Isnt it a "grand" in most jurisdictions? (its only $400 in California).

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have painfully discovered that Poor Richard was right,

"Neither a borrower or lender be."!


[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, that was ben franklin.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

Dave follow sean,

Dave see good time to stick knife in sean neck,

Dave take wallet,

Dave do not clean knife and put back in mom kitchen, Dave do not tell tale to stranger with next buzz.

Dave feel like man, Sean die like animal.

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

Dear juggabear's friend

Never give your party poker password out to anyone. (especially idiots who will never pay you back)

Party Poker Support.

Moran!

Re: Shady potential fraud and thievery (long)
 

If your friend gets his money back through surreptitious means he won't be able to discontinue trying to collect the debt because it will look as though he is the guilty party.

Then what... continue trying to collect a debt that is not owed you, er, your friend? <another very moral move>