No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

For those who did not already realize it, my concession to Not Ready that there is no absolute morality without God was done mainly to move debates along to other points. Because I never accepted the converse. That God provides absolute morality. All he provides is rules. Rules that he wants obeyed. Most of those rules are similar to rules that the majority of people think are good for people in general. Some aren't. When they aren't there is no is no reason to ascribe to them some sort of absolute "rightness".
God is the boss and the buck stops with him. And there is benefits to having a boss even if he sometimes expects, you to do what you don't like. The Prisoners Dilemma shows this. Both prisoners do better if their boss tells them not to snitch, then if there was no boss at all.

But that doesn't mean that you have to give up your notions of what is "just" because God wants something else. Even God can't tell you what is just. Anymore than he can tell you whether chocolate tastes better than vanilla.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

I'm not sure if this is what you mean... but...

If God is the Absolute moral standard, then morals are still relative -- to God!

So, morals can be relative to humans -- that we know exist, and can poll to get their opinions on various ethical situations -- OR, they can be relative to "God" -- that we don't know exists, and can't poll to get his opinion on ethical situations.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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If God is the Absolute moral standard, then morals are still relative -- to God!


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Bingo.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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But that doesn't mean that you have to give up your notions of what is "just" because God wants something else. Even God can't tell you what is just.


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This is just another form of the Euthyphro dilemma. As I've stated before, it amounts to a denial of the possibility of God and reduces to might makes right.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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As I've stated before, it amounts to a denial of the possibility of God and reduces to might makes right.

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You once again fail to see the hypocrisy of your own untenable position.

Your stance that God is the source of absolute morality is, by definition, nothing but might makes right.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Your stance that God is the source of absolute morality is, by definition, nothing but might makes right.


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No it isn't.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

You may have misunderstood me. I don't claim that people who believe in God should disobey him. I only claim that you don't have to agree with him.

Put another way, I say that what is "just" is a matter of opinion. You seem to sort of agree with that. But even God can't say who is right if it truly is only a matter of opinion. Just like he can't tell you which of two paintings is more beautiful. You will obey his decrees, but if you think the more beautiful painting is the one God doesn't choose, his decree won't change your mind.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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You may have misunderstood me. I don't claim that people who believe in God should disobey him. I only claim that you don't have to agree with him.

Put another way, I say that what is "just" is a matter of opinion. You seem to sort of agree with that. But even God can't say who is right if it truly is only a matter of opinion. Just like he can't tell you which of two paintings is more beautiful. You will obey his decrees, but if you think the more beautiful painting is the one God doesn't choose, his decree won't change your mind.

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Its deja vu again

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Nonsense. Given the supposed nature of heaven and hell, only lunatics wouldn't obey god (the one associated with heaven and hell) if they were sure he existed. Which by the way is pretty good proof that most people who claim they believe, really don't (given their occasional sinful behavior). -- DS


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Hey, that argument that most people who claim they believe, really don't is mine. I even used up one of my better jokes 'saying is not believing'

However, I guess there will be some clause about loving him or some other mental attitude and god will know I don't.

chez

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Sometimes we really have to try hard to misunderstand each other so well.

[original thread if god existed ]

chez

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. I have followed the anti-religion topics for a while but have not posted but I wanted to see if I am understanding your point correctly.

People that obey the Judeo Christian god can not have a perfect morality because they disagree with some of the tenets of the core doctrine. Is that correct?

If so, it is besides the point. According to that doctrine, man is a sinful creature and will as a matter of course not agree with God. Man is just meant to obey like a child obeys his parents.

Society sets up laws which (In the case of our own.) are derived from biblical principles. Folks may not agree with them but they provide safety and order to the populance just the same.

Well, I am probably way off but if your point is that man can't reach "absolute" moral purity than I agree with you. I don't think you can have an absolute anything.

Well, I will see if I am way off base before I continue making a jackass of myself.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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But that doesn't mean that you have to give up your notions of what is "just" because God wants something else. Even God can't tell you what is just.


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This is just another form of the Euthyphro dilemma. As I've stated before, it amounts to a denial of the possibility of God and reduces to might makes right.

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Just because you dislike the outcome of a position -- might makes right -- it doesn't mean it is not the nature of reality. Might does make right, though in human affairs it can get quite complicated.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

"Its deja vu again"

Huh? I was replying to Not Ready.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Just because you dislike the outcome of a position -- might makes right -- it doesn't mean it is not the nature of reality. Might does make right, though in human affairs it can get quite complicated.


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I never said it isn't true because I don't like it. I try to point out that if might makes right is correct it's absurd to talk about morality. I'm just trying to show those who are immersed in relativity what are the consequences of their position. Hitler wasn't wrong, he just lost.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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"Its deja vu again"

Huh? I was replying to Not Ready.

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I talked about possibly disgreeing god was good even if he existed. You accused me of being silly because you would have to obey god .... Then you did the same thing and someone misunderstood you in the same way.

Struck enough of a chord to dig out the old thread. Finding one of my best jokes was a bonus.

chez

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Put another way, I say that what is "just" is a matter of opinion. You seem to sort of agree with that


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I don't know how you can think I've ever even hinted I agree with that. As I've said before, God's "opinion" is produced by His character - He isn't arbitrary, His character is holy, righteous and good - and therefore so is His opinion.

To say otherwise, to put a standard above God by which we judge God, is to deny the possibility of God. Something has to be highest, absolute - I belive it's God. Anything else denies God.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Your stance that God is the source of absolute morality is, by definition, nothing but might makes right.


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No it isn't.

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God's might makes right, not humans.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Just because you dislike the outcome of a position -- might makes right -- it doesn't mean it is not the nature of reality. Might does make right, though in human affairs it can get quite complicated.


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I never said it isn't true because I don't like it. I try to point out that if might makes right is correct it's absurd to talk about morality. I'm just trying to show those who are immersed in relativity what are the consequences of their position. Hitler wasn't wrong, he just lost.

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Clearly. Now you are getting it.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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God's might makes right, not humans.


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No it doesn't.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Clearly. Now you are getting it.


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Been saying it since my first post on morality. Don't know why we have to keep going over it.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

THEN THEY HAVE NOT HEARD THE VOICE OF THE TRUE GOD!!!

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Its deja vu again"

Finding one of my best jokes was a bonus.

chez

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chez,

are you saying this is one of your best jokes? If so, you might not realize that is a quite common one over here and fairly old too. Hope this doesn't burst your bubble , but I know you would want to know the "truth". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

RJT

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Its deja vu again"

Finding one of my best jokes was a bonus.

chez

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chez,

are you saying this is one of your best jokes? If so, you might not realize that is a quite common one over here and fairly old too. Hope this doesn't burst your bubble , but I know you would want to know the "truth". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

RJT

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no, 'saying is not believing' was one of my best jokes.

I could prove this is true but it would be a painful experience.

chez

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Society sets up laws which (In the case of our own.) are derived from biblical principles.

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Not true.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

I want to re-word your whole post to make sure it is what you are saying (it is how I understand what you said) If you are not saying #1 then I would like to get back to it in another thread at some point, so that I can understand that issue fully.

1)For those who did not already realize it, my concession to Not Ready that there is no absolute morality without God did not include a concession to the converse: 2)That God necessarily provides absolute morality. 3) He might simply provide rules. Rules that he wants obeyed… 4) He might not even necessarily provide AM or rules, but here the issue is that if he provides rules then there is no reason to ascribe to the rules as some sort of absolute rightness.

Continuing on to my re-worded #2,3,4:


But, do you think if God really gives AM and/or rules that anyone would actually disagree? Do you have something in mind?

Using your example, one might say that one prefers Jackson Pollack to Renoir. And neither are ruled the better artists. But, would anyone actually say Pollack’s abstraction is more “beautiful”? Sure, one can actually say this and perhaps even think it. I am just saying I find it improbable. Or to put it another way, if God gives AM and/or rules, one certainly has the option to disagree. But, I would think that if we knew all the “facts” - what the AM is, what the rules are, the “rationale” behind them, it seems improbable that one would disagree. One certainly might, but especially if a “good” God, I find it unlikely is all.

Still another way to get at what I am thinking: We can very easily misunderstand the rules, I just doubt that if there are “rules” from God that anyone would find them debatable (again assuming a “good” God. Certainly is easy to find debatable to what we think of as a “bad” God.)

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

Sorry David for the brief hijack, but levity never hurt any of us.

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no, 'saying is not believing' was one of my best jokes.

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Yeah, pretty good chez.

I find this this image pretty funny too, though; if I were feeling sadistic, I might even challenge you to prove it:

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I could prove this is true but it would be a painful experience.

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Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

The reason you think the euthyphro dilemma entails the denial of the existence of God is because you have a very poor understanding of the euthyphro dilemma.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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The reason you think the euthyphro dilemma entails the denial of the existence of God is because you have a very poor understanding of the euthyphro dilemma.


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Why don't you explain it to me?

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

The Euthyphro dilemma is directed against Divine Command Theory, not religion. The conclusion is that either morality exists independent of God (which is what most theists find acceptable, but obviously contradicts DCT), or one faces the problem of morality being arbitrary. Most people are more willing to reject DCT than accept arbitrary morality.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

well put

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

You are being obtuse and I did read your link. Natural Law and the rights of man flow from a biblical perspective stemming from Western Civilization. If you doubt that religion had any persuasion over the Western style of law, look at the Supreme Court's architecture and sculpture.

We may disagree with religion but it is a FACT that western civilization has it roots in Christianty.

Look up Common law under the the Brits (Lord Blackstone to be precise.) and tell me religion had no part in it. Our Founders did not use religion and in this you are correct, however, my point is that the whole of Western Civilization has its roots in Christianity.

That is a fact. I never said anything about the 10 commandments or anything close to a religious point of view.

We as a country are based on Natural Law and the common laws of Englnd as a matter of historical fact. The link you gave me is anti-religious, so what. I am myself an atheist.

The Founders based most of their ideas against ancient Rome. IMHO, they made our Republic better. To think they were not as a majority Christian is wrong.

Think what ever you want. You can read what they said if you open a book.

Are you really so daft as you think ALL of our political customs swearing to God just popped up out of no where?

Tell yourself that this country is not based on Western Civilizations principles and religion. I am not a subscriber to it but to deny it is idiocy at best, deliberate propoganda at worst.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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well put


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So why do you think I don't understand it? I've said what it is many times before. What I also say is it's a false dilemma because neither horn is required. The solution is that God is good in His essence, His character, and the morality He pronounces stems from His character.

Michael Martin tries to avoid this solution by saying the only way we can know that God's character is good is because of an independent standard. All that does is reassert the dilemma by ignoring the presupposition that God IS good. That's why I say it's just an attempt to deny the possibility of God. And according to the non-theist's presupposition, God is impossible. I believe that's what Plato was aiming for in the dialogue. He may not have had a personal absolute in mind, but I think he wanted to establish the supremacy of human reason. We get to judge anyone or anything that claims to be higher than us, which of course at least makes us equal to if not higher that the one being judged.

Non-theists can be placed on the same dilemma.If you use an independent standard to judge God, how do you know that standard is good? If you say, for instance, that God is unjust, by what standard do you say it?

Someone or something has to be the highest. Theists say God is that Someone. Non-theists say man's reason or some other standard, just so long as it isn't the Absolute, Personal God of the Bible.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

"Someone or something has to be the highest."

Even if there is no God? Why?

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

No no, you dont get it. He posted a link from a blog, and thus everything you said was refuted, along with the work of numerous historians and other scholars who acknowledge the enormous influence Christianity has had on our culture and yes, even our laws. You are obviously new at this. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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Even if there is no God? Why?


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If there is no God nothing CAN be highest, by definition. But if you assume hypothetically that God exists in order to employ Euthyphro then the statement stands.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

Which is it man?!? Natural law or Biblical law. I'll repeat your quote:

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Society sets up laws which (In the case of our own.) are derived from biblical principles.

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Now who is being obtuse??

You say our societal laws are derived from biblical principles. Then you say it's based on Natural Law. You know these aren't the same thing, right?

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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No no, you dont get it. He posted a link from a blog, and thus everything you said was refuted, along with the work of numerous historians and other scholars who acknowledge the enormous influence Christianity has had on our culture and yes, even our laws. You are obviously new at this. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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That's funny...

True, a blog that said what I wanted to say without me having to type it. What's funny, is that Fierce agrees that our laws are based on Natural Law... but then says they are based on the Bible. Those are two entirely different things. It's very funny.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

You said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
What's funny, is that Fierce agrees that our laws are based on Natural Law... but then says they are based on the Bible. Those are two entirely different things. It's very funny.

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What Fierce said:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Natural Law and the rights of man flow from a biblical perspective stemming from Western Civilization

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Natural law has everything to do with a biblical perspective. Yeah our laws werent copied down straight from the Bible. No one said that so the blog post you linked is tearing down a strawman. All the basic assumptions of our system of law, have their roots in the Christian perspective. This isnt anything radical I am saying here. Its just a fact of the history of Western civilization.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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What Fierce said:

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Natural Law and the rights of man flow from a biblical perspective stemming from Western Civilization

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My initial response was to this:

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Society sets up laws which (In the case of our own.) are derived from biblical principles.

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Our laws do not reflect the biblical principles that most people (including me) think of when you say "biblical principles". At this point, you or Fierce will need to outline these "biblical principles" that supposedly our laws and "Natural Law" are based on.

My understanding is that "natural law" originated with the Stoics... several hundred years before Jesus. I can't wait to see which "biblical principles" are used in "natural law" that can be seen in our current legal system.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

I still don't think you get my point. It is merely that what is morally right or wrong is a matter of opinion. God may have good reasons to ask for actions. But that doesn't mean that they are moraL. Perhaps this is just semantics.

Re: No Absolute Morality WITH God Either
 

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It is merely that what is morally right or wrong is a matter of opinion.


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I get your point. You want neither God nor morality to exist.