pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

well. i think he's a good player, and his status on the yearly TLB probably suggests that he is. but he is a tool. after being busted in the rebuy he was furiously telling me how stupid my play was, how it was "the gayest play ever",ect...

anyways. i thought it was a pretty easy play, b/c i thought BB would not push without something really good, then i could fold and be fine. and dude, if you're a 2+2er, i do'nt care how good you play, GROW up, b/c you are VERY CLASSLESS

here it is:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t16000 (8 handed) converter

Button (t207548)
Hero (t311630)
BB (t432682)
UTG (t444452)
UTG+1 (t80259)
MP1 (t266068)
MP2 (t434896)
CO (t40609)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t39809</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t96000</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t140609) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t140609) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t140609) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t140609

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

easy play, retarded beration. nh.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

You called off 13% of your stack with q5o.... getting nowhere near the odds to call?

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
You called off 13% of your stack with q5o.... getting nowhere near the odds to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you say he's getting nowhere near the odds to call without first putting villan on a range of hands?

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can you say he's getting nowhere near the odds to call without first putting villan on a range of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. range... ie ATC.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

i'm not too crazy about this..you're risking 33% of your stack to get yourself a coinflip.

I think it depends on how often BB plays back at you.
--

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

hero played this well. Pbdrunks is a very childish player. Generally, he lacks good manners. Specifically, he is prone to childish outbursts like this.

As for the hand. Hero is getting about 2.3:1 on his play (provided he can fold out BB). Villian's range is wide as he has only 2.5BBs.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not too crazy about this..you're risking 33% of your stack to get yourself a coinflip.

I think it depends on how often BB plays back at you.
--

[/ QUOTE ]

well. i felt BB might come over top with weaker hands if i call. but i didn't think he's likely push me in with garbage after i raised... and i think he might have made somewhat loosish calls if i pushed since it looked so suspicious, which is why i raised. i'm not really sure if the raise was good amount, but i'm almost certain that reraising is the correct play here.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

Yea i've gotta think that's +cEV.. just looks so wrong.

so are you raising any 2 cards here to isolate?

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea i've gotta think that's +cEV.. just looks so wrong.

so are you raising any 2 cards here to isolate?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Q5 is very likely to have villian "over/undered" or "btwnn the sheets" That is, a lot of villians hands will be A6/K7/K2/67/J9/etc etc. Villian's range is very wide and Qx has high card value. I wouldn't do this with a bottom 50% hand, but my range for this play is pretty wide.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I like this play. A 'smallish' raise looks more like you have a bigger hand then you actually have, that might scare the BB of calling with hands that dominate you. I prefer this play over pushing AI. Sure the BB could've picked up a monster and raises you, better fold then that when he calls an AI right?

And as CSC stated, the Q has a high-card value.

nh sir!

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I could only do what you did if I thought the BB was uber tight. It's just too risky for so few chips for what will be a coin toss. It's not a bad play per se, just that I'd need to be very sure of the BB and his range here.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I like it.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q5 is very likely to have villian "btwnn the sheets"

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the play a lot, I like this term more.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
so are you raising any 2 cards here to isolate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell, if Q5o ain't any 2, I don't know what is [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But seriously, what's the cutoff then for taking this line?

[ QUOTE ]
easy play, retarded beration. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I'm probably the biggest donkey luckbox on this board but.... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

With blinds at T16k the pushers range is HUGE but what does the hero actually think he's ahead of? I watched a player call an all-in last night 'cause he, "thought he was tryin to steal." Oh yeah, really? Well if that's the case, did you think your crap hand was really ahead of his crap stealing hand?

Anyway, I guess I just don't see the play here.

The only case I can see is that the hero has a stack to make the play and can knock out a player. When (lol) he loses the hand, he'll not've taken a big hit to his stack but I still don't see an isolation play being more correct than a fold here.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

well the reason it's a call is because of the pott odds, the guy is really shortt, so you're getting close to 2:1, so it's profitable even if you're an underdog in the hand. You don't have to be ahead, to want to play.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I don't get it, you make sense recently when I read your posts.

WTF is going on?

-Jason

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, if Q5o ain't any 2, I don't know what is [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But seriously, what's the cutoff then for taking this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Trash. Q high isn't trash; it has some potential and hero has no reason to expect he is dominated here.

[ QUOTE ]
ok, I'm probably the biggest donkey luckbox on this board but.... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

With blinds at T16k the pushers range is HUGE but what does the hero actually think he's ahead of?

[/ QUOTE ]
Suited (and unsuited) connectors and one gappers all the way from JT on down, among others. It's close for a lot of other pushing hands-- even lots of the Ax and Kx hands-- and if the raise knocks the big blind out, hero suddenly has pretty nice odds-- better than 2 to 1, so he doesn't have to strictly "be ahead" to make this play work.

[ QUOTE ]
The only case I can see is that the hero has a stack to make the play and can knock out a player. When (lol) he loses the hand, he'll not've taken a big hit to his stack but I still don't see an isolation play being more correct than a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is only putting about 10% of his stack at risk. How small does that percentage have to be to justify the play, in your mind?
If the BB woke up with a monster that would suck, but that's the risk you take-- that's rare enough to make the play worthwhile.
Creating-- and creatively finding-- favorable gambles is an underrated part of tournament strategy.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is only putting about 10% of his stack at risk

[/ QUOTE ]

actually he's putting 1/3 his stack at risk.. BB is still to act. Granted, it's not a big risk, but it's somethign to think about.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I played with PB and Aaron Bartley in some satellites out at the WSOP Circuit Harrahs, he seemed like a pretty good guy there. Him and Aaron were both drunk though, but we had a pretty good time.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

seem to remember reading something somewhere where if you think someone's on a steal and his stack is 10% or less than yours, then any two cards will do. it's 13% of your stack but you're already in 8K, push him AI.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I had the pleasure of playing with PB yesterday at the 18:30 rebuy. The moment I got to the table he was complaining about something. My first thoughts were he was a bit of a whiner. Though, I've played with him before and he's been perfectly fine. I think it depends on the mood.

I did knock him out, AK against his AQ. He took it well. Wished me a gg and was on his way.

I think we're all kinda "off" at times. Some more than others.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I don't get it? Where is the brilliance in this play? I understand the value of knocking out a player of his caliber but I think that the drawback of doubling him up is much greater and you're basically doing everything you can to do that.

If I was at your table I'd think you were purposely chip dumping no matter what he flipped over.

At any rate, if the goal is simply to get rid of him, call and hope for a reasonable bb who is after the same goal and check it down unless the flop comes down as it did, at which point, try to build up a side pot with the bb. I absolutely hate when people make this play and double up a shorty who's on his way out. I'm just a donk though so please someone enlighten me with the brilliant strategy behind an isolation move with a hand that's not that strong against a random hand.

That being said, his reaction sounds a bit sub-par but such is the game of poker. We all think we're better than the players who bust us about 90% of the time.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]

If I was at your table I'd think you were purposely chip dumping no matter what he flipped over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Even though he was getting 2:1 on a desperate shortstack with 2.5BB that only represents 10=15% of his stack?
You must send a lot of emails to Pokerstars.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

That was a bit on the sarcastic side. My point was that I personally hate when people try to be the short stack police and end up doubling them up time and time again by coming over the top with hands that only a broken random card generator should ever give people. I especially hate it when they do this to a player of pbdrunks skill level.

PS he didn't risk 15% of his stack, he risked 30% by coming over the top of him with total garbage.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
That was a bit on the sarcastic side. My point was that I personally hate when people try to be the short stack police and end up doubling them up time and time again by coming over the top with hands that only a broken random card generator should ever give people. I especially hate it when they do this to a player of pbdrunks skill level.

PS he didn't risk 15% of his stack, he risked 30% by coming over the top of him with total garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you prefer to let the shortie add 60% or so to his stack with no risk?

I think the play was fine. He was clearly getting the right odds against shorties range.

And I don't think the risking the raise is as strong a point as people are making out since he had a read on the BB.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the play was fine. He was clearly getting the right odds against shorties range.

And I don't think the risking the raise is as strong a point as people are making out since he had a read on the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think the raise is exactly what negates any odds he has for calling. Thanks for trying, but you're not telling me anything I don't know and I still think it's a bad play.

Just because good players sometimes make the play doesn't make it a good one and I remain unconvinced.

I appreciate your reasoning though. I am fairly new to the forum and I generally find most of the information here very valuable and have learned much in a short time but I disagree with most on this thread and can find no redeeming qualities in making this play. I guess that's why I'm not superb with a big stack.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
call and hope for a reasonable bb who is after the same goal and check it down unless the flop comes down as it did,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the worst out of the three options.
Specifically. What didn't you like about the play? I'm still thinking that it was a low risk way to add to your stack, knock out a player (even if he wins you've still got him seriously outchipped), and you are getting odds.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

If he wins yes. The biggest(I have several) problem with this move as I see it is the raise. I know he had a read on the bb blah blah blah. The problem is he had no reasonable knowledge of the bb's hand. IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call but provides him with some pretty darn oppressive reverse implied odds IMO. I think that had he not posted the results of this hand, people would be thinking a lot differently about this move.

What happens when you make this move, the bb cold calls you w/AA and the flop comes down AQ5? BB has you covered and when you raise him with a horrible hands the reverse implied odds are exactly the size of your stack every single time IMO. In this case it worked so everyone says it's a great move, but I've seen people make similar moves that have blown up in their faces and when they posted them on this very forum with the opposite results we see here they get railroaded (for good reason IMO)

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he wins yes. The biggest(I have several) problem with this move as I see it is the raise. I know he had a read on the bb blah blah blah. The problem is he had no reasonable knowledge of the bb's hand. IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call but provides him with some pretty darn oppressive reverse implied odds IMO. I think that had he not posted the results of this hand, people would be thinking a lot differently about this move.

What happens when you make this move, the bb cold calls you w/AA and the flop comes down AQ5? BB has you covered and when you raise him with a horrible hands the reverse implied odds are exactly the size of your stack every single time IMO. In this case it worked so everyone says it's a great move, but I've seen people make similar moves that have blown up in their faces and when they posted them on this very forum with the opposite results we see here they get railroaded (for good reason IMO)

[/ QUOTE ]

But what is the BB's range for calling your raise vs. raising your raise vs. calling your call?
That's like saying Hero shouldn't raise JJ here because the BB might pick up a big hand. Monsters-under-the-bed.
Or what if he calls you with 52 and the flop comes 552. You're screwed then too. there's always a flop you can go bust on.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

Ok, you can play what-if games all you want, BB has a random hand, and he's going to fold 90%+ of the time. Then you're heads up with a random hand, and you're in a coinflip for a decent amount of chips.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he wins yes. The biggest(I have several) problem with this move as I see it is the raise. I know he had a read on the bb blah blah blah. The problem is he had no reasonable knowledge of the bb's hand. IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call but provides him with some pretty darn oppressive reverse implied odds IMO. I think that had he not posted the results of this hand, people would be thinking a lot differently about this move.

What happens when you make this move, the bb cold calls you w/AA and the flop comes down AQ5? BB has you covered and when you raise him with a horrible hands the reverse implied odds are exactly the size of your stack every single time IMO. In this case it worked so everyone says it's a great move, but I've seen people make similar moves that have blown up in their faces and when they posted them on this very forum with the opposite results we see here they get railroaded (for good reason IMO)

[/ QUOTE ]

If all goes well for you, in two or three months you’ll look back on this post and say “I can’t believe I wrote that.”

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he wins yes. The biggest(I have several) problem with this move as I see it is the raise. I know he had a read on the bb blah blah blah. The problem is he had no reasonable knowledge of the bb's hand. IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call but provides him with some pretty darn oppressive reverse implied odds IMO. I think that had he not posted the results of this hand, people would be thinking a lot differently about this move.

What happens when you make this move, the bb cold calls you w/AA and the flop comes down AQ5? BB has you covered and when you raise him with a horrible hands the reverse implied odds are exactly the size of your stack every single time IMO. In this case it worked so everyone says it's a great move, but I've seen people make similar moves that have blown up in their faces and when they posted them on this very forum with the opposite results we see here they get railroaded (for good reason IMO)

[/ QUOTE ]

If all goes well for you, in two or three months you’ll look back on this post and say “I can’t believe I wrote that.”

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely hope so. I truly would like to understand this play as it's one I see often but I don't get it. It seems a little too craps or roulette to me. And yes, I used an extreme example and not exactly one that I'm afraid of. I guess my point is just because he can push ATC shouldn't lead one to believe that you should call ATC with someone to act behind you and even more so shouldn't lead one to reraise ATC. Believe me if I'm the shorty in this spot I'm certainly pushing far worse hands I guess I'm just not at a level of play yet where I can comfortably come over the top of someone whose already all in with Q5o. Someday I sure hope to be.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

Harrington's "rule of ten" it's the play that he advocated calling ANY AI if your stack is 10 times the pusher's
something to think about

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, if Q5o ain't any 2, I don't know what is But seriously, what's the cutoff then for taking this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Q5 is actually pretty low on my list. Q2 i might have, but would'nt have liked it as much. J7o, J5s or so i think would be good enough, and T8o, 98o, maybe 87s. i don't know really, but somewhere around there is i think where i'd draw the line.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

when your getting 2:1 on your call against any two cards Q5 is probably a coin flip, your only screwed against 5K,5A,pockets 55+,Q6+. Everything else and your getting more then enough odds for. Most hands your either a favorite or 55:45 (A2 vs Q5) or something like 60:40, or since he is raising w/ any two here because he's a good player and he knows he can't wait around Q5 is better then an average hand so you may even be best. However, your hand is not good 3 way, therefore, to make this a +EV its mandatory to raise the bb (who he even said would need a good hand to call, so he's tight, even better). Now your getting 2:1 on your money where your likely a favorite or a 60:40 situation at worst (only need 3:2, your still getting better then that) unless he picked up some monster, which is highly unlikely (20% of the time roughly) and still unexpensive because his stack is so low.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

I played with him last night in the PLO deepstack. He was pretty amusing with his constant whinning.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call

[/ QUOTE ]
Less posting, more reading on how to not be a complete donk, please.

When you reraise an all-in bet and are not called, those chips are returned to you. Raise or call he is getting the exact same odds. This is basic math.

This play is so ridiculously obvious it's not even funny. But I will concede that reading people call it an awful play is definitely +EV in terms of laughs.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO not only does the isolation move negate any odds he had to make the call

[/ QUOTE ]
Less posting, more reading on how to not be a complete donk, please.

When you reraise an all-in bet and are not called, those chips are returned to you. Raise or call he is getting the exact same odds. This is basic math.

This play is so ridiculously obvious it's not even funny. But I will concede that reading people call it an awful play is definitely +EV in terms of laughs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the helpful comments and the willingness to share your knowledge with a newbie. I now know why I have found this such a helpful forum. Back to exclusively reading the posts of others and never posting I guess.

Re: pbdrunks on pstars is a clown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Harrington's "rule of ten" it's the play that he advocated calling ANY AI if your stack is 10 times the pusher's
something to think about

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington's rule of 10 applies only if your closing the action.