How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

<font color="blue">
Button: 22/10.5/2.6
MP2: 42/0/.6
</font>
<font color="purple"> Figures are after 5 orbits </font>

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.75 (All-In), UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds...

<font color="red"> Or did I? </font>
(stuff it up that is. I definitely folded)

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

I don't really see how we can continue with this hand. Looks good to me. Too bad it was a nice pot. Was folding the turn UI or to a diamond your plan post flop?

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

I think I have to call here. Your A outs are good enough here to call alone, and they might be good unless up against AA or JJ. KK we have 3 outs and QQ we have 6. We are drawing dead to JJ. We probably have to discount our A and K outs even further because they'll put 4:diamonds: to the board but still...

Am I using gorilla math counting these outs to justify a call here?

Hehe, I am using gorilla math [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

*Grunch*

Preflop: gOOt

Flop: Good check, we can't raise because we are OOP and there are 2 other PFRaisers yet to act. All we have are overcards (6 outs) + BDFD (1.5) = 7.5 outs. This is about 5:1 break-even odds and the pot is laying us 23:2 (11.5:1) so even though it is a cold call it is a good one.

[flame-proof suit] zip [/flame-proof suit]

Turn: Good fold. The pot is large but we are not getting more bets from the all-in player and we are UI with 3 to a flush and a pair on the board.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

Theres no way you can count your overcards as 6 outs with 2 OTHER Preflop raisers. Theres a good chance some of your aces or kings are in another players hand. On the flop I value them as 3 outs AT BEST.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

Preflop: no worries. (I love UTG's preflop line, btw. Give him a biiiiig note, "Might bluff-raise pf utg.")

Flop: Uh, I don't think you can check this after capping, preflop, or, if you do it's with the intention of check-folding, not check-calling-two-cold-not-closing-the-action. I actually prefer check-folding this flop, I think...you've got 2 opps with hands they liked enough to survive a preflop cap betting and raising into you, and you have no way of knowing it won't be 3-bet and capped after you call. You missed. MP2 and Button don't think they did. Let it go.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no way you can count your overcards as 6 outs with 2 OTHER Preflop raisers. Theres a good chance some of your aces or kings are in another players hand. On the flop I value them as 3 outs AT BEST.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's only 1 other preflop raiser. UTG raise-folded preflop.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

Thanks! I grant you that I am not great at discounting outs yet. So that still gives us 4.5 outs by your math and the BDFD which is approx 9:1 and we're still getting 11.5:1 from the pot (or did I screw that up too?). This is why I put on my flame-proof suit! Thanks for the help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

Fold the flop with 2 back to you.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

hmm...i'm wondering about betting this flop, but i don't think check/calling is horrible. it is doubtful anyone is on a flush draw given small field and play so far plus we have the nut BDFD and a goofy straight draw, which total ~5 outs (conservative 3 outs to OCs, 1.5 BDFD, .5 for goofy straight draw). we need 9:1 to call profitably and getting 12:1, so calling here isn't a huge leak.

i really think this is a nh actually.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's only 1 other preflop raiser. UTG raise-folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Figured I missed something. In that case I might give your overs something like 4-4.5 outs.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

The problem with calling the flop is we still have someone left to act behind us. Plus our outs are a bit tainted possibly.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

You run into more trouble, tho, if it's 3-bet and capped after you call. Then you're getting 28:4...I'll let you finish that off. And, you're assuming that you're not drawing dead to a set.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with calling the flop is we still have someone left to act behind us. Plus our outs are a bit tainted possibly.

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i took this into consideration with the outs (at least i thought i did with 3 outs to OCs which i gave figuring we're not up against a flush draw right here) plus MP's aggression is nothing, so i really doubt he's 3-betting us here.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: no worries. (I love UTG's preflop line, btw. Give him a biiiiig note, "Might bluff-raise pf utg.")

Flop: Uh, I don't think you can check this after capping, preflop, or, if you do it's with the intention of check-folding, not check-calling-two-cold-not-closing-the-action. I actually prefer check-folding this flop, I think...you've got 2 opps with hands they liked enough to survive a preflop cap betting and raising into you, and you have no way of knowing it won't be 3-bet and capped after you call. You missed. MP2 and Button don't think they did. Let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had actually planned to check/raise the button <font color="blue"> (Is this bad?), </font> I was still confident against his 3 bet range, and I thought there was a good chance MP2 would fold without close to the nuts. I was 95% button would bet when checked to. When MP2 bet out, and then button raised (of course) I was stuck in the head lights. I figured I had the odds to peel but was definitely folding the turn UI, regardless of who bet.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

Maybe I'm rusty but I'd consider folding the flop facing 2 (and possibly more).

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had actually planned to check/raise the button...I was 95% button would bet when checked to.

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Uh, from his stats, Button looks to be a pretty good TAG. You capped him preflop. What's he going to bet into you that you're ahead of or even have a decent draw against?

[ QUOTE ]
I figured I had the odds to peel but was definitely folding the turn UI, regardless of who bet.

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You were ok peeling, but IMO it's on the bubble. The problem is, after the flop action you have no way of putting either of your opponents on hands that you're going to beat even if you do hit one of your top pair outs, and your flush and straight outs are longshots that make your TP outs better, but still aren't very good. And, given that MP2 liked his hand enough to bet into two preflop raisers (after you check), you have no guarantee that you're going to get to the turn for just 2 bets.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

[ QUOTE ]
...plus MP's aggression is nothing, so i really doubt he's 3-betting us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have doubted that he'd bet into 2 preflop raisers having shown no previous aggression in the hand...so, I guess maybe he's happy with his hand?

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

in my experience, there are 3 different places to stuff "it" up. they are all warm, and one is particularly elusive.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

I'd peel getting 13:1.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

You have like 2.5 clean outs and your fold is fine.

Re: How many ways did I stuff this up???
 

The flop is ugly for you, fold the turn...theres no way someone doesnt have a pair at the least