low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Little background...the table was not as LAG as this hand would lead you to believe. This was considered a lot of action on this albeit low-limit Party table.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

OK, I limp UTG. I can raise here but I want to play this hand multi-way. So I limp. I get a lot of action which pleases me.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Great flop for me. A bit co-ordinated but still I assume I'm ahead. I get a LOT of action here and I'm starting to wonder if I'm behind to someone's higher set?

Turn: (17.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

UGGGG. 789T, two spades, two clubs...gotta figure I'm behind here and I have a bettor and raisor right in front of me. I'm getting 10-to-1 odds on my money here (where I figure if my 10 outs are clean I'm about 20% to hit a boat or better), but if I'm behind to a higher set, I'm really in trouble. I assume my 10 outs aren't totally clean, and so I fold to the added aggression.

River: (23.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The "good" news is I probably don't get a lot of action on this river? The three opponents held KcKh, JsJd, and Jh4h for a two-way split-pot with J-high straight.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between MP2, CO and UTG+2.</font>


Any advice? Did I play this hand well or poorly? Funny thing is I was 5-tabling and on my next hand at the other table I made quad 8's for like a 10BB pot. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] Why couldn't I have lost THAT pot? lol.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

That is a terrible turn fold. Count up your outs to fill up and look at what the pot is laying you on the turn.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Even if you knew you had to pay four bets to see the river, you should still call. That turn fold is absolutely terrible.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

First things first... .50/1 goes in micros. No biggie, just so you know for the future. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Preflop is good; you should never be folding a pocket pair on a Party .50/1 table (if the table conditions are such that limping would be wrong, then you need to find a new table).

Flop is good.

You cannot, ever, fold a set on the turn in a big pot. Period. Okay, maybe once in a blue moon you'll have such a good read on your opponent that you can be 110% sure that he's got a bigger set, and then you can fold (although even then, I'd call down just in case). In this case, you have no reason to believe that you're trailing a bigger set; two pair is possible, which would cut down on your outs somewhat, but it's just as likely that CO has JJ, MP2 has QJ/JT, UTG+2 has a 6/flush draw...you name it. You have to call for your FH outs here.

God was telling you something when that 7 came on the river. Don't fold the turn with a set!!

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Really bad fold. Huge pot and you've got odds to chase the boat/quads.

Sometimes I forget myself and almost fold here too. You can fill up!!!

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Preflop is fine, and your flop play is good.

You're not really getting played back at that much on the flop though (there was only one raise), so I'm not sure why you're thinking set over set already. Someone could be slowplaying a set (or a straight), it's true, but I don't think you should assume someone is.

I wouldn't fold on the turn, but the situation does suck. You're almost certainly behind, and on a board this coordinated, with this many players in, you have to wonder how much you should discount your non-quads outs. If the board pairs tens on the river, for instance, you could lose to someone's T9o. And it looks like it could cost you four BBs to get to the river.

Still, I don't think you should fold your draw to a boat/quads. The pot is just too big. And MP2 and CO appear just to have straights.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is just too big. And MP2 and CO appear just to have straights.

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This is the answer to this thread.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

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You're not really getting played back at that much on the flop though (there was only one raise), so I'm not sure why you're thinking set over set already.

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You're right, anyone here with top or mid set caps after I three-bet. Duh! I should have automatically assumed I'm up against straights/overpairs/flush draws, and in that case I'm like 20% to hit the river and the pot is laying me 10-to-1.

Follow-up question...should I smoothcall the turn raise, or 3-bet it?

Thanks for the input guys. I think this was a product of me 5-tabling for the first time. If I had more time to concentrate on the hand I probably realize nobody else has a set here.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

This looks like an 'expert' laydown in a big pot, a terrible mistake at small stakes hold'em.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Grunching

I try for a check/raise on the flop. This seems like a great time to go for one. Your going to get paid off by lots of drawing hands and you want to get the most now when you've got the pot equity.

I don't fold this turn. I think you're starting to see monsters under the bed if you're worried about bigger sets already. You could easily be up against 2 pair, TP+flush draws, even still just flush/straight draws. I don't fold in a pot this big with a hand that could still be best and has chances to improve.

River, I'm banging my head against the wall at this point.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Just a couple of add-on comments:

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, anyone here with top or mid set caps after I three-bet. Duh! I should have automatically assumed I'm up against straights/overpairs/flush draws, and in that case I'm like 20% to hit the river and the pot is laying me 10-to-1.

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I think you're worring too much about another set. You only need 4-1 pot odds to make a profit here. You could be up against bigger set 50% of the time and it would still be correct to call 2 bets on this turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Follow-up question...should I smoothcall the turn raise, or 3-bet it?


[/ QUOTE ]
Only call. You're surely behind and you have no reason to knock anyone out.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Little background...the table was not as LAG as this hand would lead you to believe. This was considered a lot of action on this albeit low-limit Party table.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

OK, I limp UTG. I can raise here but I want to play this hand multi-way. So I limp. I get a lot of action which pleases me.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Great flop for me. A bit co-ordinated but still I assume I'm ahead. I get a LOT of action here and I'm starting to wonder if I'm behind to someone's higher set?

Turn: (17.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

UGGGG. 789T, two spades, two clubs...gotta figure I'm behind here and I have a bettor and raisor right in front of me. I'm getting 10-to-1 odds on my money here (where I figure if my 10 outs are clean I'm about 20% to hit a boat or better), but if I'm behind to a higher set, I'm really in trouble. I assume my 10 outs aren't totally clean, and so I fold to the added aggression.

River: (23.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The "good" news is I probably don't get a lot of action on this river? The three opponents held KcKh, JsJd, and Jh4h for a two-way split-pot with J-high straight.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between MP2, CO and UTG+2.</font>


Any advice? Did I play this hand well or poorly? Funny thing is I was 5-tabling and on my next hand at the other table I made quad 8's for like a 10BB pot. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] Why couldn't I have lost THAT pot? lol.

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i agree with aargh57, betting out the flop doesn't protect your hand against any flush/ straight draw. Preflop action came from the CO, looks perfect for a CR to charge the draws 2 bets. After that, never fold a set and hope to fill up when on the river after the board gets ugly on the turn.
Q.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get a LOT of action here and I'm starting to wonder if I'm behind to someone's higher set?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible thinking.
There is both a str8 and flush draw on a very coordinated flop.

You should be thinking of how you have a powerful hand, outs to improve it and the joy of a bloated pot. Folding is not an option.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

Just to beat a dead horse. Never fold this turn! You have 10 outs and probably take down a number more bets on the river when you hit.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

You didn't need to ask to be berated. That was inevitable.

Holy cow I hate that fold. The pot was ginormous dude and you folded what most times is a very live draw. Take it with no grease, bite the pillow and hope for the best on the river. You will see a str8 not a higher set like 90% of the time there. Folding in such a large pot because you fear a higher set on a board that coordinated is stupfid, moranic and well worthy of a few kittens being slaughtered.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with aargh57, betting out the flop doesn't protect your hand against any flush/ straight draw. Preflop action came from the CO, looks perfect for a CR to charge the draws 2 bets. After that, never fold a set and hope to fill up when on the river after the board gets ugly on the turn.
Q.

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This is silly. The pot is 16.5 SBs. If the CO bets out like you want, and either the button or BB calls, your raise is offering 20.5:2 or over 10:1. With implied odds, a gutshot is right to call there. Flush draws don't care about a raise, they're getting odds to call anyway. Anyone with a pair is getting odds to call and hit their 5 outer.

A checkraise isn't really any better at protecting the hand than betting out.

Here's the rub: You don't really need to protect your hand here. You have a set. Yes, there are straight/flush draws out there. But you're well ahead of them and have 7, then 10 out re-draws to a boat. Bet out and hope you get raised so you can 3-bet.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get a LOT of action here and I'm starting to wonder if I'm behind to someone's higher set?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible thinking.
There is both a str8 and flush draw on a very coordinated flop.

You should be thinking of how you have a powerful hand, outs to improve it and the joy of a bloated pot. Folding is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post said exactly what I wanted to say. Not to keep adding salt to the wound, but given the texture of the board there are tons of possible hands they could be holding. If the board was J72 and there was the same action, maybe you could start so suspect a set from a PF raiser. But here, there's no reason.

I'm sure this hurt a lot, but if this hand fixed this leak in your game forever, it was a pretty cheap lesson. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

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I'm sure this hurt a lot

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No, not really. Not monetarilly. It hurt that I made an obvious mistake in a huge pot but the fact that I "lost" ~$25 has almost no impact on my bankroll. I'm still learning limit play. And I was 5-tabling for the first time last night and I did it for an hour straight with only a couple glitches, and I still ended the session +13BB's. Sure it would have been nice to leave +36BB's but I screwed up and next time I'll be more wary of the board texture as well as my opponents play.

I can get that $25 back by playing NL for about 10 minutes! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Mostly I'm playing limit to master the game and move up.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't need to ask to be berated. That was inevitable.

Holy cow I hate that fold. The pot was ginormous dude and you folded what most times is a very live draw. Take it with no grease, bite the pillow and hope for the best on the river. You will see a str8 not a higher set like 90% of the time there. Folding in such a large pot because you fear a higher set on a board that coordinated is stupfid, moranic and well worthy of a few kittens being slaughtered.

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Yeah I get it. The 27 people ahead of you pointed it out without being grade-A d**chenozzles.

Feel good about yourself.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

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[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure this hurt a lot

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No, not really. Not monetarilly. It hurt that I made an obvious mistake in a huge pot but the fact that I "lost" ~$25 has almost no impact on my bankroll.

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Yea that's all I meant. I play 3/6 and 5/10 but if I somehow made this play at .25/.5 I'd still be kicking myself. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

I made a similar fold with TT in 2/4 limit.

3-bet preflop
flop was AJT 3 bet flop
turn K, check, bet, I call, get check raised and reraised and I fold.

should I pay 3 more big bets to see the river when I am most likely up against a straight and/or a larger set/two pair???

I decided no, which was a mistake only in retrospect as both oppos had AQ, but even if I knew that it would be correct to call because I had 8 outs. It turns out I would have won the monster pot when I filled on the river.

But, how can I risk it with 3 way action, when I know I am behind and even if I fill up it may not be good?

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't need to ask to be berated. That was inevitable.

Holy cow I hate that fold. The pot was ginormous dude and you folded what most times is a very live draw. Take it with no grease, bite the pillow and hope for the best on the river. You will see a str8 not a higher set like 90% of the time there. Folding in such a large pot because you fear a higher set on a board that coordinated is stupfid, moranic and well worthy of a few kittens being slaughtered.

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Yeah I get it. The 27 people ahead of you pointed it out without being grade-A d**chenozzles.

Feel good about yourself.

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Read the title of the thread you started... get a sense of humor and some thick skin if you decide to post threads like this.

Re: low limit multi-way hand. Please berate me.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't need to ask to be berated. That was inevitable.

Holy cow I hate that fold. The pot was ginormous dude and you folded what most times is a very live draw. Take it with no grease, bite the pillow and hope for the best on the river. You will see a str8 not a higher set like 90% of the time there. Folding in such a large pot because you fear a higher set on a board that coordinated is stupfid, moranic and well worthy of a few kittens being slaughtered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I get it. The 27 people ahead of you pointed it out without being grade-A d**chenozzles.

Feel good about yourself.

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Read the title of the thread you started... get a sense of humor and some thick skin if you decide to post threads like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. Everyone else managed to "berate me" without being such a top notch d***-cheeseburger about it.

BTW, I'm far more funny than you will ever be.