How about this one...T4 in SB
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

Fold preflop

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I would go for a check raise on the turn. Either BB bets again and you trap the whole field for two bets, or someone in LP raises and you get to protect your hand. I really doubt the turn is getting checked through.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would go for a check raise on the turn. Either BB bets again and you trap the whole field for two bets, or someone in LP raises and you get to protect your hand. I really doubt the turn is getting checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguement is contradictory. one of the two is optimal, which one is it? Make everyone pay or protect my hand?

EDIT: Ridiculous was a rather strong word [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I don't get this complete.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Table was extreaaaamly bad and I'm getting 12:1. My VPIP in SB is proportionally small relative other 2ers but I thought this was a call

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would go for a check raise on the turn. Either BB bets again and you trap the whole field for two bets, or someone in LP raises and you get to protect your hand. I really doubt the turn is getting checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguement is ridiculous. one of the two is optimal, which one is it? Make everyone pay or protect my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that either one is better than leading the turn.

EDIT: But it depends on how the table is playing, if you think it's getting checked through a lot than leading is probably best.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would go for a check raise on the turn. Either BB bets again and you trap the whole field for two bets, or someone in LP raises and you get to protect your hand. I really doubt the turn is getting checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguement is ridiculous. one of the two is optimal, which one is it? Make everyone pay or protect my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that either one is better than leading the turn.

EDIT: But it depends on how the table is playing, if you think it's getting checked through a lot than leading is probably best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would go for a check raise on the turn. Either BB bets again and you trap the whole field for two bets, or someone in LP raises and you get to protect your hand. I really doubt the turn is getting checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguement is ridiculous. one of the two is optimal, which one is it? Make everyone pay or protect my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that either one is better than leading the turn.

EDIT: But it depends on how the table is playing, if you think it's getting checked through a lot than leading is probably best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why

[/ QUOTE ]

I might have overstated it a little bit, as I think protecting your hand is not that important here. I still think I check. Best case BB bets, everyone who was going to call your lead calls his bet, and you trap everyone for two bets. Medium case, someone in later positon bets, you c/r and probably get the same number of bets as leading. Worst case, it gets checked through. However, I think that BB is betting the turn again a lot of the time.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

Fold preflop. 12:1 is not nearly enough to make T4o a profitable complete.

Fold the flop. If BB is betting top pair, or anyone else is calling with it, you do not want to make trip tens. The 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is unclean as well. If you make your hand on the turn and it happens to be best, it will be extremely vulnerable to a lot of rivers (like this one).

Check-raise the turn. Donking the turn like this practically screams, "I just turned two pair!" Trap the field for two bets with only 1 card to come.

Bet-fold the river, unless you bet and it folds to the CO who raises. Then I'd probably have to call and lose because bluffing that paired 9 after everyone has folded might be too juicy for someone to pass up more than 8% of the time.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

This is awful

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is awful

[/ QUOTE ]

With respect, screw you. I hate posts like this. It is one thing to begin a post with "this is awful" but to only type that is utterly atrocious.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I think your preflop here would make baby jesus cry. FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD

I don't care that you are getting 12:1
What flops do you want to see? Your ten will often be second best to another ten. If it isn't, it will be a chop, or, it will often be second best to a better pair like when the flop comes AT2 or QT2. Oftentimes, you won't even flop a pair. You can't make any 2 card straights or flushes. T4 is such a bad hand.
This sounds like a bad call, but its much worse than it sounds, because you are guaranteed to be OOP for the whole hand, and for all your know the BB might raise.

Nothing shrt of omniscience will let you play this for a profit.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

You're getting 11:1 preflop. And you have T4o. This is a pretty easy fold. T4s, I call; T9o, I call; hell, even 74o, I call. But T4o is just a tiny bit too icky for me.

I like the postflop play. While I wouldn't rule anything out on Party 2/4, I doubt you're getting called by any worse hands if you bet the river. And I don't want to give the free card on the turn, nor do I want to c/r if BB bets again.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even the flop call? I'm just not sure Hero wants to see any card but a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I like leading the flop too. It prevents the hand from getting checked around, and it also helps to define your hand when it gets raised twice behind you.

I like leading the turn. There's no reason to believe that BB will follow through on 4th after he just bet his bottom pair, pocket deuces, or ace high and got 3 callers.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even the flop call? I'm just not sure Hero wants to see any card but a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 10:1, I think it's worth continuing. With the drawy nature of the flop, there's no guarantee that anyone else has anything yet, let alone another T.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even the flop call? I'm just not sure Hero wants to see any card but a non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 10:1, I think it's worth continuing. With the drawy nature of the flop, there's no guarantee that anyone else has anything yet, let alone another T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I usually tend to stay out of these situations because of the RIO on my hand, especially with many callers on the flop. I feel much better about a mediocre top pair no kicker in a 3 handed pot than a 6 handed one.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

1. Fold pre-flop. If you are completing with T4o you are completely with any two cards. And surely you're not doing that in a 1/2 structure.

2. Flop is correct.

3. Turn looks like a good spot to check-raise for value in a five way field.

River plays different if you check-raise the turn.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

if you are going to complete with this hand (?) you need to lead on the flop.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you are going to complete with this hand (?) you need to lead on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes little sense to me.

Leading the flop does little. This is a definite "check-and-see" situation. We have a bad reverse implied odds hand, and really just want to see a turn for one bet and see what happens.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get this complete.

[/ QUOTE ]

He clicked call. He should not have.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you are going to complete with this hand (?) you need to lead on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow, how does calling pf force me to lead after the flop? This is like when people say if you call the turn you have to call the river. No! If calling the turn was incorrect, how must you follow it up with another incorrect play?

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

This is not always a check and see situation. Without reads, I'm going to lead here, because the bets that might come behind you don't tell you anything, but calls and raises do. Also, more hands will call than will bet. The only reason to check and see is if you don't plan on seeing the turn.
I'm not really happy about having top pair in this spot, but it could easily be the best hand, and playing this passively isn't going to clarify your situation or get you value in the average 2/4 game.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I checked with the intention of raising the flop, but since everyone came along, calling is then the correct play, correct?

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not always a check and see situation. Without reads, I'm going to lead here, because the bets that might come behind you don't tell you anything, but calls and raises do.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of hands currenlty worse than Hero's that would be completely justified in raising, calling 2 cold, or even 3-betting this flop if Hero leads out. There are also better hands that would flat call.

This is the perfect example of a hand where I flop top pair &amp; don't really care; if I check and it comes back two to me, I fold without a second thought. If I check and it comes back 1 bet with no callers, I check/raise. If you get the kind of flop action that Hero got here, it's a good check/call getting odds to draw to his 5-ish outer, plus the possibility that Hero is already best.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

Fold preflop. Fold this flop. A connected-suited flop with no kicker is a definate fold. You can even make a case for folding QT here. The turn donk looks good. I'm hoping BB raises and protects my hand for me. Looks like a slim value bet on the river. I would check.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are going to complete with this hand (?) you need to lead on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow, how does calling pf force me to lead after the flop? This is like when people say if you call the turn you have to call the river. No! If calling the turn was incorrect, how must you follow it up with another incorrect play?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very hard to fold any made hand on the river in small stakes. Sometimes people call turns with practically no outs. On the river they need to be half as likely to be the winner. They aren't getting the reverse implied odds that they had on the turn. Did that make sense?

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I checked with the intention of raising the flop, but since everyone came along, calling is then the correct play, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. My play is usually to check and:

1. Raise a late position bet.

2. Call an early position bet, often with the intent of donking a safe turn card.

3. Folding to a bet and a raise.

The idea is simply that the action behind you gives you a ton of valuable information that will allow you to play the hand much more optimally than you would simply betting blindly into a large field. Checking is not that dangerous here because the pot is small, and, in a large field, it's very unlikely to get checked through anyway.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

What top pair would you lead with here? JT? QT? How small should the field be before you lead with T4?

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

PF is whatever. I'm sure you're sick of hearing about it, and I think it is least interesting part of hand.

On the flop a c/r is a decent play from a late position player. I would also check because there are enough players that if I see a bet and a raise I can fold without having put in any bets for information. With the Big Blind betting and everyone else leading, I call as well.

I think the best move on the turn is to bet hoping that big blind will raise and limit the field. I have grown to hate weak two pair holdings like this that always get counterfeited. The last thing I want to do is trap the whole field for a bet, keeping multiple players in and lose a big pot.

Re: How about this one...T4 in SB
 

I'd lead JT and up. I like having an overcard to my pair and a reasonable suspicion that I'm not always outkicked if I'm behind. JT and QT also have backdoor straight possibilities which is nice.

The difference is that with T4 I'm completely okay with giving up on the hand if the flop action gets crazy, whereas I imagine I'm going to want to at least see a turn with JT+. I'm obviosly leading and almost always three-betting with KT and AT.