T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

I was reading through Brier and Ciaffone's Middle Limit Hold'em book, and they pose the following question in their pre-flop chapter.

Suppose you have Td9d on the button. Three people limp and the cutoff raises. What do you do?

They suggest that one fold in this situation. I figured this to be the safe play to make. But as I thought about it some more, I began to wonder: is this really is an auto-fold?

It seems like there may be a number of reasonable situations where calling makes sense. My thinking is that the limpers will almost definitely call, and there is a chance that one or both of the blinds will call. You've got a reasonable drawing hand with T9s (in what will likely be a five to six way pot) and you also have position the rest of the hand. (One disadvantage is that your relative position might not be all that great; in particular, the raiser is immediately on your right, so if the flop clobbers you, and if it is checked to him and he bets, a raise on your part might blow away the field instead of building a pot).

I guess my questions are: 1) What factors would you consider when deciding whether to call/fold in this spot. And, on a related note, 2) are there a reasonable set of circumstances where you might consider calling the raise? (e.g., can you justify a call if the cut-off is a maniac and raises every other hand...)

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

I think raising is superior to calling!

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

I hadn't really considered raising as a real option (or perhaps my sarcasm detector is broken? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Can you elaborate? For a suited connector like T9s, I would think that you want a (preferably large) multi-way pot. If you raise, it seems far more likely for the pot to end up being heads up or two way. (Though I suppose that you might be able to create some deception value...)

Interestingly, this past weekend I saw a $4-$8 hand (details fuzzy) where (before the flop) UTG and UTG+1 limped, MP1 raised, MP2 re-raised, and MP3 four bet. Only MP1 and MP2 called. The flop came Qxx, and it was checked around. The turn was a T, and MP1 bet, MP2 raised, and both MP3 and MP1 called. The river was a 9. MP1 bet, MP2 called, MP3 raised, MP1 called, and MP2 folded in disgust.

MP3 showed J8o for the (second nuts) queen-high straight. MP1 appeared to mumble a few expletives and mucked in total disbelief.

I don't know how you could justify a pre-flop four-bet with J8o, but I suppose if you can do that, then you definitely ought to be able to three-bet T9s. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So much to learn...

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

Raising only cost you one more small bet, but will:

1) make a bigger pot for when you hit and tie in the others.

2) Possibly give you a free card.

3) sometimes get you 3-way where you might win with a top pair type hand.

4) It will give you a more dangerous image (metagame).

All in all raising gives you more options

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

Thanks for clarifying that! Your post makes complete sense. Going back to Brier-Ciaffone, this is looking less and less like an auto-fold (as they suggest) to me.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

I forgot one thing!

5) it disguises your hand!

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

It depends mostly on the raiser. I suspect in their games when the book was written that a raise generally meant a better hand. now, in the laggy games, especially online, it's a pot sweetening raise often enough that you can play a hand like this

however, one huge factor you didn't mention is that your relative position SUCKS and that makes your hand significantly less valuable. agaisnt an UTG raise this is an easy call against all but the tightest raisers

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

this is interesting. it doesn't seem right but you do make a compelling argument.

some things that go against it are that you likely make it a more shorthanded pot where you're still going to need to make the best hand. the dead money does make up for this though. also your pot equity probably isn't so great. but it's gotta be at least fair share. as I said, you make a really compelling argument. it just doesn't make sense right away.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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your pot equity probably isn't so great. but it's gotta be at least fair share

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Isn't this a contradiction?

I believe T9s will have more than fair share equity on average.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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your pot equity probably isn't so great. but it's gotta be at least fair share

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Isn't this a contradiction?

I believe T9s will have more than fair share equity on average.

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Jesus! I love your aggressiveness, however, in the BB?!
Maybe we should tone it down just a notch and save that move for the Button or CO?
How do you continue after the flop hits you a little bit?

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

im going to have to go against the grain here which seems to be raise.


its a fold imo.

T9s may win, may make top pair but look at what a raise does:

1) it puts more money in the pot w/ a hand that isn't likely best.

2) you tie your opponents to a pot that you may not want to. if you have a pair they are likely to peel and there are 5 cards higher than the highest pair yoiu can make.

3) you may have more than fair share of equity, and position, but equity doesn't factor in what the hand plays out like 3 handed vs. 5 handed for 3 bets and 2 bets respectively

i can't remember what else i was thinking so i'll stop there for now.

Barron

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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Jesus! I love your aggressiveness, however, in the BB?!

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Suppose you have Td9d on the button.

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Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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you may have more than fair share of equity, and position, but equity doesn't factor in what the hand plays out like 3 handed vs. 5 handed for 3 bets and 2 bets respectively

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Equity AND position has allways seemed like a good marriage to me! That said I don't mind a fold, but I would rather raise than call.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

MLHE assumes the limpers are decent players so your T9s is likely a weak holding.

It really depends on the lineup, mostly I'd call here but if there are agros in the blinds or someone who likes to limp reraise then you can fold.

Also if the limpers are tight then they probably have hands at least as good as yours probably better.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jesus! I love your aggressiveness, however, in the BB?!

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Suppose you have Td9d on the button.

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I'm all for raising when you maybe don't have the best hand if it's justified, but this is a spot for a call, and not a fold or a raise. 3-betting MAY get not only the blinds, but also the three limpers to fold and now you're heads-up against the cut-off guy.

That's not what you want, especially since his cut-off raise is invariably more than a steal raise, given the limpers ahead of him, and even if he's just buying the button, it's not the EV move, given the cap-risk and everything else.

By simply calling, you may lure in the blinds AND keep in the limpers, having a nice 7-way pot for 7BB going into the flop and you have a nice hand with position on the field (even though your relative position is horrid, given that you are first to act after the PF raiser).

I have to go with call > fold > raise (but the last two are pretty much almost equally bad).

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

IMO, this is a call when you can expect a 5 or 6 way pot and you're on the button with the second best drawing hand in hold'em. If you can't find it in you to ever throw a way top pair, then maybe you shouldnt be playing this hand here, but given the fact that you're really wanting to make a hand like trips, a straight, or a flush or two pair, playing the hand for these criteria makes the situation very different. I think that in a real tough game you wouldnt want to play this hand here, but then again, how often are there three limpers before the CO raises in really tough games? I'd call the bet anticipating a large multiway pot and hope the flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] blank.

This hand can be argued either way, but in the end it will largely depend on how well you play the flop and what kind of game it is.


Tex

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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Raising only cost you one more small bet, but will:

1) make a bigger pot for when you hit and tie in the others.

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Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.


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2) Possibly give you a free card.

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'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.


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3) sometimes get you 3-way where you might win with a top pair type hand.

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Yes, but our best flops are likely to be the ones where we flop draws and don't we want lots of opponents so more players will be around to pay us off on the river?

If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

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4) It will give you a more dangerous image (metagame).

All in all raising gives you more options

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I prefer more money to more options. Give me lots of opponents and I can't be losing too much equity in this hand by calling. Give me few opponents and one with an overpair and I can be taking much the worst of it.

Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 711384 51.90 656462 47.89 2908 0.21 0.520
Kd Jd 389764 28.43 978082 71.35 2908 0.21 0.285
Tc 9c 266698 19.46 1101148 80.33 2908 0.21 0.195

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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its a fold imo.
...
i can't remember what else i was thinking so i'll stop there for now.


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I don't like our position in relation to the preflop raiser, so that probably makes it a fold for me.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

Well, I could be wrong - several responses seems to point to that. A few comments on your post though:

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Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.

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You will be tied into a 5 way pot anyway with odds to call the flop on a gutshot. Exept now the pot is less likely to be raised in front of you and you might even get a free card to draw to your gutshot.

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'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.

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This would be true if that was the only reason to raise, but since it is not our free card only costs a fraction of a sb.

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If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

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There will still be upportunities to ram and jam the flop and more importantly, ram and jam when you hit, since opponents will have a harder time putting you on a hand.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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You will be tied into a 5 way pot anyway with odds to call the flop on a gutshot.

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This is like bad deja vu...

And a problem is that by raising you may find not only the blinds going away, but the limpers saying, why bother calling the extra 2 when the cut-off might cap it, so they'll dump their limps and now you're heads-up.

Likely? Maybe, maybe not, but you don't know this is going to be five way. There's a big difference when the raise comes from an early spot and then people are calling two cold vs. limpers now calling an additional 2 after their limp.

Now if the hand were a HIGHER suited connector (like KQs) you'd be correct to raise.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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IMO, this is a call when you can expect a 5 or 6 way pot and you're on the button with the second best drawing hand in hold'em. If you can't find it in you to ever throw a way top pair, then maybe you shouldnt be playing this hand here, but given the fact that you're really wanting to make a hand like trips, a straight, or a flush or two pair, playing the hand for these criteria makes the situation very different. I think that in a real tough game you wouldnt want to play this hand here, but then again, how often are there three limpers before the CO raises in really tough games? I'd call the bet anticipating a large multiway pot and hope the flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] blank.

This hand can be argued either way, but in the end it will largely depend on how well you play the flop and what kind of game it is.


Tex

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of course it can be argued either way...only 1 play is correct though. and imo (and a few other significant winners ive asked) that correct play is a fold.

you're paying too much to get in here with a possibly dominated hand acting directly after the raiser.

Barron

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

Who says the raiser can't be raising with AQo here?

My definition of "dominated" is that of sharing the same card and being behind the second. The only way 9-10s is dominated is with an overpair. Now, clearly if the original raiser always has an overpair, it's a different situation. But for those times where your cards are live (or at least one of them) I think this hand can be played for several reasons, none of which are worth arguing because this is such a game situation dependent decision that it doesnt matter in this context.

Loose game, with a bad raiser, it's a clear call.

Tight game with good players and a stong raiser, muck it.

Tex

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

I agree with what barron said about the raise. Why would you possibly want to drive out hands and money when you have the best position and the second best drawing hand in hold'em? This is the spot you want with this hand, (the button) and this is the kind of pot you want for this hand (multi-way) the only drawback is your position in regards to the original raiser, and the fact that the pot was raised PF. But even with the PF raise, you're going to be getting excellent odds on the flop.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who says the raiser can't be raising with AQo here?

My definition of "dominated" is that of sharing the same card and being behind the second. The only way 9-10s is dominated is with an overpair. Now, clearly if the original raiser always has an overpair, it's a different situation. But for those times where your cards are live (or at least one of them) I think this hand can be played for several reasons, none of which are worth arguing because this is such a game situation dependent decision that it doesnt matter in this context.

Loose game, with a bad raiser, it's a clear call.

Tight game with good players and a stong raiser, muck it.

Tex

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lol, wow. i thought youd come a little farther since being banned. im gunna stop here since i got class but if i feel generous i'll explain the reasoning later unless someone else wants to.

and its not as player dependent as you think.

Barron

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

was that supposed to read "i have to go to class" or " i'm not going to explain because i have too much class"?

it read like the latter to me anyways.

I dont understand what you meant by coming farther since being banned. Que paso senor Dee?

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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you're paying too much to get in here with a possibly dominated hand acting directly after the raiser.

Barron

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With you rementioning my point of relative position, I think it has to be given more weight than I originally said about how while fold is better than raise, both are close to as bad. So I'll just restate as:

call > fold > raise

And when comparing A to B and B to C, it's closer perhaps between A and B than betwixt B and C.

Even with poor relative position, given the potential 7BB pot 7-way for a mere 1BB, I like 910s here for the BB, especially if you can correctly play the various situations that will come post-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

You know, seriously, I really like reading your posts. I never thought of it like that before, as you just put it.

Call>fold>raise

Tex

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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Well, I could be wrong - several responses seems to point to that.

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Part of the problem is your preflop equity can be a little more than your fair share or a lot less than your fair share. So now you 3-bet, only to find either the blinds or the preflop raiser capping. So you are paying 4-bets to see the flop, when your equity is the least.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

"Suppose you have Td9d on the button. Three people limp and the cutoff raises. What do you do?"

Never fold.

In no particular order and with no mutual exclusivity ...

I'd reraise if the blinds are tight but not so tight that they don't need an extra reason to fold.

I'd reraise if the cutoff is a button thief.

I'd reraise if these are check-to-the-reraiser kind of folks.

I'd reraise because reraising is fun.

I'd call if the big blind is calling no matter what.

I'd call if the cutoff is definitely not being spunky or getting out of line.

I'd call if everyone in the pot so far is playing well at the time.

I'd call because calling can be fun too.


Tommy

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I could be wrong - several responses seems to point to that.

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Part of the problem is your preflop equity can be a little more than your fair share or a lot less than your fair share. So now you 3-bet, only to find either the blinds or the preflop raiser capping. So you are paying 4-bets to see the flop, when your equity is the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. Thanks!

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Suppose you have Td9d on the button. Three people limp and the cutoff raises. What do you do?"

Never fold.

In no particular order and with no mutual exclusivity ...

I'd reraise if the blinds are tight but not so tight that they don't need an extra reason to fold.

I'd reraise if the cutoff is a button thief.

I'd reraise if these are check-to-the-reraiser kind of folks.

I'd reraise because reraising is fun.

I'd call if the big blind is calling no matter what.

I'd call if the cutoff is definitely not being spunky or getting out of line.

I'd call if everyone in the pot so far is playing well at the time.

I'd call because calling can be fun too.


Tommy

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Folding also doesn't make any money here. I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy's post here.

Lawrence

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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however, one huge factor you didn't mention is that your relative position SUCKS and that makes your hand significantly less valuable. agaisnt an UTG raise this is an easy call against all but the tightest raisers

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I alluded to this in my original post:

[ QUOTE ]
(One disadvantage is that your relative position might not be all that great; in particular, the raiser is immediately on your right, so if the flop clobbers you, and if it is checked to him and he bets, a raise on your part might blow away the field instead of building a pot).

[/ QUOTE ]

The upshot in the discussion so far seems to be that in the tighter/tougher MLHE games that the book might have had in mind, you might be more inclined to fold. For some of the looser games, raising or calling are viable options.

So, I guess the answer seems to be "it depends" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Each option (call, rasise, or fold) could be justified for a reasonable set of circumstances.

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
was that supposed to read "i have to go to class" or " i'm not going to explain because i have too much class"?

it read like the latter to me anyways.

I dont understand what you meant by coming farther since being banned. Que paso senor Dee?

[/ QUOTE ]
i confused the 2 threads.

Q9s insta call in bb to a raise closing the action where K9o may be a fold.

Barron

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Suppose you have Td9d on the button. Three people limp and the cutoff raises. What do you do?"

Never fold.

In no particular order and with no mutual exclusivity ...

I'd reraise if the blinds are tight but not so tight that they don't need an extra reason to fold.

I'd reraise if the cutoff is a button thief.

I'd reraise if these are check-to-the-reraiser kind of folks.

I'd reraise because reraising is fun.

I'd call if the big blind is calling no matter what.

I'd call if the cutoff is definitely not being spunky or getting out of line.

I'd call if everyone in the pot so far is playing well at the time.

I'd call because calling can be fun too.


Tommy

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Interesting statements:

1) I'm fairly aggressive and maybe sometimes too aggressive
2) Tommy is oftentimes (wrongly) accused of being too passive
3) Tommy is more aggressive with this holding than I would be
4) I've been thinking about 910s far too much today and points 1-3 aren't going to help matters in the next few days in regards to this point
5) The guy who, to my knowledge, didn't accept the other Barron's one-on-one challenge (that was the two of you, right?) likes my posts

I think I'm going to take a nap now.

Head
spinning


Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

ugh.

nevermind

Re: T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser
 

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2) Tommy is oftentimes (wrongly) accused of being too passive


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That's mostly a result of his posts when he's out of position. He's got the button here and Tommy loves his button.