WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

This was the first event, $300 buy-in at the Caesar's Indiana Circuit event last week.

I was card dead for the first 3 levels and had only played one hand until this hand came up. In that hand I limped in the CO w/ JTo after several limpers and folded to a bet on the flop.

I was down to T1300 chips halfway thru level 3 w/ blinds at 50/100 when this hand came up. I look down at two red kings in EP2 and raise it up to T150. My thinking at this point was how unforutnate it was that I wouldn't get a single caller b/c of my tight image at the table.

Much to my surprise, I get reraised to T400 by MP2 who had about T2200. He had been in maybe 18% of the hands so far. My read on him was that he was a semi-tight passive player who hadn't done anything out of line. I had also watched him when he was in other hands as to his breathing and general demeanor.

Everyone folds back around to me. I have to say that normally, I would shove all my chips in here at this point but I decided to call as I couldn't imagine this guy reraising me with anything other than AA's or AKs. In addition, when he reraised me to 400, he did it forcefully and I hadn't seen him act so aggressively during his other raises. I studied him for a second, thougt his breathing was a little more rapid than other hands I'd seen him in, and decided to just call.

The flop came 7s2s8c. I was down to T900 chips and checked to him. He threw out T400 chips almost immediately. He hadn't acted like this in any of the other hands I'd seen him play to this point.

I went into the tank. After about 3 minutes, I folded face down but not before casually allowing the guy to my left see my hand. I surmised he had AA's and there was no way I was ahead.

Was this a bad fold? Should I never fold KK's in this spot?
BTW he showed the table his hand.

Thanks for your comments.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

Folding KK when you have 13x the Big Blind is weak. Very weak. I don't like it at all.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

I certainly wouldn't be so sure the guy had AA. I'm curious about your raise, as it seems to me you'd have to make it at least 200 to go with 50/100 blinds, no? So you min-raised and he min-re-raised?

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normally, I would shove all my chips in here at this point but I decided to call as I couldn't imagine this guy reraising me with anything other than AA's or AKs.

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If you thought that, shouldn't it be raise or fold?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Folding KK when you have 13x the Big Blind is weak. Very weak. I don't like it at all.

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Folding KK pre-flop is strictly against my religion. The poker gods reward my devotion with the occasional king on the river.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

-It's a horrible fold.

-I can't ever see folding KK after that flop. I would of actually re-re raise all in preflop.

- You have played with this guy for 3 levels and all of a sudden you deem yourself a breathing expert? Couldnt he also reraise with QQ, JJ, AQ etc??? Could he be bluffing a weak tight?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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T1300 chips halfway thru level 3 w/ blinds at 50/100 when this hand came up. I look down at two red kings in EP2 and raise it up to T150.

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This seems off.

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Everyone folds back around to me. I have to say that normally, I would shove all my chips in here at this point

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and that would be correct IMO. If you were card dead for 3 hours, finally picked up a hand and ran into the nuts, so be it, clearly not your tournament, but with your stack you have to push here IMO.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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After about 3 minutes, I folded face down but not before casually allowing the guy to my left see my hand.

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Did the guy to your left look at you like you had three heads?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

I would have to push here pf, if you run into them, like the last poster said, so be it. Pushing them pf lets you sit back and watch, since you might make some weird decisions postflop with your short stack. If you're gonna fold ANYWHERE, maybe, maybe find a re-raise that allows you to not be pot-commited, but I couldn't do it.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

I apologize! I was tired last night when I posted this and didn't have the info correct. It was halfway thru level 2 when blinds were 25/50 b/c I raised 3xBB to T150 and he repopped me to T400 to go.

It had been a little over an hour after the tourney started and as I said, I had only played one hand where I limped preflop, then folded on the flop.

I guess you would have to be there to really understand how this guy's demeanor changed and maybe I understated that fact in the OP. I was sure I was beaten so I laid them down.

My reasoning was twofold:

1. I had a VERY tight image at the table where most players had already been in 7 or 8 hands where as I had only limped into 1. How could this guy reraise me w/ QQ's or less given that image?

2. This guys was screaming strength at me. Something was different with him this hand.

Can you never laydown the KK's in this situation? My tourney was on the line, I still would have T900 to work with and possibly double up to get back into it.

Yeah, I could have done the easy thing and said all in and if my read was correct be dead to two outs w/ 2 cards to come. I understand that KK's w/ undercards is a monster on that flop.

But I couldn't possibly see how a semi-tight passive player who RERAISED the tightest player at the table's first raise and second hand played could have anything other than AK's or AA's.

I have never, ever laid down KK's on a flop like this until that tourney.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

You may find play money tables more enjoyable.
How the [censored] do you get away from this hand.
Poker takes some balls, I suggest growing a set.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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My tourney was on the line,

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So putting in 1/3 of your stack and check/folding KK on that board is going to help your "tourney life"?

Folding to preserve chips in a situation where you should be commiting yourself to the hand is not survival, its a slow death

Survivial in a a tourney consists of playing every hand as +EV as possible and accumulating chips.

Commiting your stack to this hand is +EV.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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He had been in maybe 18% of the hands so far. My read on him was that he was a semi-tight passive player who hadn't done anything out of line.

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I loved the 18% line, pure comic gold!!!

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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I certainly wouldn't be so sure the guy had AA. I'm curious about your raise, as it seems to me you'd have to make it at least 200 to go with 50/100 blinds, no? So you min-raised and he min-re-raised?

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normally, I would shove all my chips in here at this point but I decided to call as I couldn't imagine this guy reraising me with anything other than AA's or AKs.

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If you thought that, shouldn't it be raise or fold?

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Blinds were actually 25/50 and I raised 3xBB.

That's a great point about raise or fold. Laying down Kings on that flop is impossible enough. I will probly never fold KK's preflop tho in my entire life.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

No wonder you were afraid of not getting action for your raise. You sound really weak/tight.

Reraise allin preflop. Checkraise allin on the flop if you are not going to lead at it.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

Seriously, this guy could have re-raised you with anything. I mean look at the donk fest the WSOP has become and they are "the best players in the world" there. (yeah right) Half the people there cant even spell poker. If he has Aces then so be it...

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

he can't have QQ?

You are too low to not get allin here.
When he bets only 400, i am getting allin there.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

This sucks.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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-It's a horrible fold.

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Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

I appreciate all of the "serious" responses out there.

After I folded he lifted his cards up to show everyone he had Aces. Needless to say the whole table was flabbergasted that I laid down the KK's. After the "nice laydown" comments, I wonder if they were genuine or if they were thinking I could be bluffed easily or that I was weak tight. Probly a little bit of both.

Though my read was correct, I think the fold was incorrect. More specifically, I can't help but agree that I played the hand very weak-tight.

After the reraise to T400 preflop, I think the only "correct" play was to reraise all in w/ my KK's as I can sit back at that point and cry or scream if another King hits.

I feel that my thinking was a little too narrow in that I could only imagine him reraising me with AA's and much less likely with AK in this spot. This was probly due to the fact that this was my first live tourney and I was uber-aware of my table image while he may not have been. Because of this, his range is wider including QQ's+ and maybe AQs+. I think this is why it was incorrect to fold KK's here.

Thanks for your comments.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

So, did you cash in the tournament?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Though my read was absurdly lucky ...

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seriously, would it have been all that surprising if he had shown you QQ?

at least now you realize the reasoning errors you made during that hand. nonetheless, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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I appreciate all of the "serious" responses out there.

After I folded he lifted his cards up to show everyone he had Aces. Needless to say the whole table was flabbergasted that I laid down the KK's. After the "nice laydown" comments, I wonder if they were genuine or if they were thinking I could be bluffed easily or that I was weak tight. Probly a little bit of both.

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I know you wanted to show off your brillaint laydown and great hand reading ability. However, I wouldn't let anyone know you had kings. They might get the idea you will lay down anything other than the nuts and try to bluff you out of pots.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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So, did you cash in the tournament?

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No, but I lasted another 2 hours. Not too much later after the KK's hand I limped in UTG+2 for T100 w/ AcQd and the button and SB called, BB checked.

Pot is T400. Flop is KcQcKh. I check, button bets T300, blinds fold and I reraise all in figuring he wouldn't have bet with a king. He calls and shows the King but it comes runner runner flush to save me.

I couldn't get much else going tho as I wasn't getting very many good hands to work with and was forced into a SS strategy most of the tourney.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

why didn't you raise PF? what was the button's kicker?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

Looks like you looked into his soul and made the correct play.

Way to go!

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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So, did you cash in the tournament?



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No, but I lasted another 2 hours. Not too much later after the KK's hand I limped in UTG+2 for T100 w/ AcQd and the button and SB called, BB checked.

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Suprise, suprise. Your style of play is well suited for lasting but not cashing.

Why didn't you raise with AQs in 3rd position? Were you playing for a limpraise? How strong a hand do you need to make an early position raise? How many chips did you have?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Folding KK pre-flop is strictly against my religion. The poker gods reward my devotion with the occasional king on the river.


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lol nh.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Suprise, suprise. Your style of play is well suited for lasting but not cashing.

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So true. That what the purpose of my previous response to this thread [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

FWIW, I hate the way that AQ hand was played.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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So, did you cash in the tournament?



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No, but I lasted another 2 hours. Not too much later after the KK's hand I limped in UTG+2 for T100 w/ AcQd and the button and SB called, BB checked.

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Suprise, suprise. Your style of play is well suited for lasting but not cashing.

Why didn't you raise with AQs in 3rd position? Were you playing for a limpraise? How strong a hand do you need to make an early position raise? How many chips did you have?

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It wasn't suited. Sometimes I raise sometimes I don't w/ AQo in EP. I don't see how not raising with AQo is a big mistake.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Looks like you looked into his soul and made the correct play.

Way to go!

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If this was in response to the second AQ hand I wouldn't expect someone like you whose play I respect to flame me like that. Other than maybe raising preflop, I can't see how you would play it any differently.

If it's in response to the KK's laydown, whatever...

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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why didn't you raise PF? what was the button's kicker?

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He had KTo. I had T900 and limped for T100. I felt like a raise would commit me to a hand that wasn't made yet and if I raised all in it would look suspicious at that point. My plan was to reraise all in if I was raised and just go for it.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

Unless there was an obvious physical tell this is a horrible laydown. Were you looking for an excuse to fold? Was there really an obvious tell? I still haven't met anyone who can look inside of someone and figure out what hand they have. How would he have acted differently with his tell if he had Jacks, Queens, Kings, or AK?

If you are convinced he has AK or Aces your laydown is horrible. There are 16 combos of AK and only 6 of Aces.

Bruce

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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Unless there was an obvious physical tell this is a horrible laydown. Were you looking for an excuse to fold? Was there really an obvious tell? I still haven't met anyone who can look inside of someone and figure out what hand they have. How would he have acted differently with his tell if he had Jacks, Queens, Kings, or AK?

If you are convinced he has AK or Aces your laydown is horrible. There are 16 combos of AK and only 6 of Aces.

Bruce

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I have to say that this guy was STRONG. He hadn't acted like that before and this is why I felt like he had AA's. I know it's stupid to feel that way b/c he might overvalue QQ's against me but it seemed to me after his bet on the flop that he was dying for me to call. He hadn't breathed like that during a hand yet and I just read him as super strong.

Believe me, I can't lay down KK's to save my life! I mostly play online MTT's and am not used to live play but man I was getting a vibe from him that told me I was beaten. It was a bad laydown b/c of my chip status and all the other reasons mentioned so far. I was suppossed to lose all my chips there. I just got lucky that my read was correct.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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why didn't you raise PF? what was the button's kicker?



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He had KTo. I had T900 and limped for T100. I felt like a raise would commit me to a hand that wasn't made yet and if I raised all in it would look suspicious at that point. My plan was to reraise all in if I was raised and just go for it.


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If you are planning to limpraise, this isn't terrible, but you need a little more chips or a stronger hand to play for a limpraise.

Just push. I don't see the relevance of whetther your hand is made. If they are suspicious and call what's the problem? If anyone has a question as to whter to call, they don't have you dominated. Besides a good player needs a strong hand to push from 3rd position for 9xBB with no ante, so they should assume you have a strong hand.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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I folded face down but not before casually allowing the guy to my left see my hand.

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Wait, I thought this was illegal.. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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I had T900 and limped for T100.

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Wouldn't you just be happy with the blinds? You can only survive 6 orbits, and it's not like you can outplay anybody with that stack.

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I felt like a raise would commit me to a hand that wasn't made yet and if I raised all in it would look suspicious at that point. My plan was to reraise all in if I was raised and just go for it.

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Horribly weak tight. Just go all in. If you get called by a better hand, not much you can do. Folding and calling are both terrible plays. I don't even like raising a smaller amount, since you really only want to play AQ against one other opponent if you do get called. Who knows, that person who gets 'suspicious' may call with AT, AJ, KQ, KJ. Even if you run into a smaller pair, at least you put yourself into a race situation.

Did I mention that your line is weak/tight?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

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He had KTo. I had T900 and limped for T100. I felt like a raise would commit me to a hand that wasn't made yet and if I raised all in it would look suspicious at that point.

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You really need to read some of the archives here. Or Harrington on Hold 'Em. Or maybe Sun Tzu's Art of War-- anything that will get you out of your weak/tight mentality.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

Maybe the guy had asthma? Could have accounted for the breathing [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Putting him on 18% seems a bit good considering you've only played three levels.

KK play horrible

AQ play horrible, folding would be better if you aren't going to raise IMO. Don't keep the trash in, it creates a stench.

Don't fear the worst evertime and you will find yourself higher up the leaderboard. If you run into AA when you have KK you are just unlucky pure and simple. No one is good enough to fold KK correctly enough to make it worth doing pre-flop.

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

are you playing any more events down there?

Re: WSOP Circuit lay down of KK\'s. Not sure it was correct.
 

most of the tells you were trying to describe could also be signs of bluffing..the difference between tells of a very strong hand and a very weak one is very slim.
when hes obviously conveyed such a tight image to the table it would be very easy for him to throw in a bluff and for you to just expect hes got it.

with the small stack that you had, and the level the blinds were at, you shouldve pushed, no doubt.