ATs
 

Villain is TAGish and has appeared a bit tricky.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB.

Anyone else play this one different?

Re: ATs
 

IMO the flop is standard. The turn is where things get interesting and I actually play these hands the same way a lot of the time against tricky opponents when I'm not comfortable folding to the turn c/r. If he has AK or 99 or 88 we allow him to draw to a 2 or 3 outer which kind of sucks. But we avoid getting checkraised, and often induce a river bluff.

Re: ATs
 

My feelings exactly.

Re: ATs
 

can you explain the turn check a bit more? i'm new [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
can you explain the turn check a bit more? i'm new [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Check Tehox's reply. Basically, agasint a TAG like this it doesn't make sense that he would just stop betting after showing so much aggression, other than to go for a check-raise with a good made hand.

Re: ATs
 

I'm not a 6 max player, but I would certainly raise the flop. If he re-raises I'd put him on overpair, if he just calls I'd put him on overs.

Re: ATs
 

If his wenttosd is high I prefer betting since he might be just looking to get to showdown with AK or whatever and doesn't want to be put to a tough decision if he gets raised on this turn.

Actually I like betting regardless of his wenttosd as a good TAG isn't folding Ax since they're just asking to be bluffed off the best hand once they check, and if they call the turn they commit themselves to calling the river.

If you've seen him bet out AK in this situation, or pull some weird turn checkraises then I check too.

Re: ATs
 

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Anyone else play this one different?

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I raise the flop, and if just called, bet the turn.

As played on the flop, I bet the turn.

Re: ATs
 

Why do you think a TAG would check AK here on the turn?

Re: ATs
 

I like it - standard WA/WB

villain will bet this river a huge percentage of the time on a bluff/for value

Re: ATs
 

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Why do you think a TAG would check AK here on the turn?

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TAGs bet this turn with AK about 95% of the time

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like it - standard WA/WB

villain will bet this river a huge percentage of the time on a bluff/for value

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think a TAG would check AK here on the turn?

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TAGs bet this turn with AK about 95% of the time

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Agree on both points here. I don't mind a flop raise but I hate getting 3-bet and laying down to the turn when we could have 5 outs to improve or even have the best hand.

Re: ATs
 

Raise the river.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Hands I beat fold and hands that beat me call.

Re: ATs
 

Villain is TAGish and has appeared a bit tricky.

Let's just say that he has AA. The standard play for XYZ player would be to bet the turn. A tricky player will commonly check the turn (as they should IMO). Checking behind is a good way to avoid the trap, but if he makes this play with AA/KK and AK-AQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] you are in a really shitty spot (assuming he check/raises them all). In general I like calling and checking against a tricky player and I feel like it is the right play here. But someone who check/raises both big overpairs and flush draws will be impossible to beat. After thinking about it some I'm feel like these types of moves are going to be a staple in my LHE game. It is all about mixing it up (against better players that is).

Brad

Re: ATs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Raise the river.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Hands I beat fold and hands that beat me call.

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I'm not so sure that hands that beat you call. I think we fold overpairs like JJ-KK regularly. Its worth paying an extra bet if we're calling to fold hands that beat us.

Re: ATs
 

Why didn't you raise this flop?
Why didn't you bet the turn?

Re: ATs
 

Explain to me how this flop is standard please? We have TPTK and we don't think we have the best hand?

If we think we have the best hand and are waiting for a turn raise that's fine. But when it's checked to us we give villan a free card?

Re: ATs
 

Then he's spewing unless he's got AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you raise this flop?
Why didn't you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're behind most 3-bet hands. Our goal is to get to a showdown as cheapily as possible.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you raise this flop?
Why didn't you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're behind most 3-bet hands. Our goal is to get to a showdown as cheapily as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're behind most 3-bet hands in 6-max with TPTK on the flop? Since when?

EDIT: I see 88, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA beating us here and that's it. Seems a pretty narrow range of hands for someone 3-betting out of the BB(yes I know we're UTG but...).

Re: ATs
 

nh

Re: ATs
 

I'd bet the turn here. I really hate to give a free card to a possible FD.

Re: ATs
 

I think this is what FPS is.
You have top pair top kicker in a 6-max table against an aggressive opponent and you do not throw in a RAISE anywhere because of what?!!

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
We're behind most 3-bet hands in 6-max with TPTK on the flop? Since when?

EDIT: I see 88, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA beating us here and that's it. Seems a pretty narrow range of hands for someone 3-betting out of the BB(yes I know we're UTG but...).

[/ QUOTE ]

See, his 3bet is not to isolate here. He's out of position and going to be heads-up with his opponent anyway, his opponent is obviously not on a steal, and still he 3bets, this would seem to indicate a monster. I like the way this hand was played.

Re: ATs
 

I think there are more than just "monsters" being 3-bet out of BB. Especially from a tricky player. I think you're losing out by not raising this flop at a minimum. This is about as good a board as you're gonna see with AT. If you cant bet this hand in this situation, you should be folding this preflop to a 3-bet.

Re: ATs
 

What does BB think YOU raised with UTG? If you are playing TAG (and he knows it) and you have a solid read on him then you must put him on 99-AA, AKo, AKs, AQs (AQo?). It's already HU, so he's not trying to isolate

I'm not convinced he's going for a c/r on the turn. You didn't cap pre-flop and only called the flop, so there's a reasonable chance you'll merely check the turn.

The river bet could be because he puts you on a drawing hand which missed.

Re: ATs
 

I like the play. nh.

Re: ATs
 

Your play is good but only if he is capable of c/raising overcards (probably including a flush draw). Otherwise just bet and fold to a raise.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you raise this flop?
Why didn't you bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're behind most 3-bet hands. Our goal is to get to a showdown as cheapily as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're behind most 3-bet hands in 6-max with TPTK on the flop? Since when?

EDIT: I see 88, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA beating us here and that's it. Seems a pretty narrow range of hands for someone 3-betting out of the BB(yes I know we're UTG but...).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just his 3-bet, it's the fact that he is checking the turn here. Put yourself in his shoes. Are you ever checking the turn here without the intention of a check-raise? AK/AQ are almost always following up with a bet, while AA-QQ could very well for a check-raise.

Re: ATs
 

I'm checking here because I'm afraid of a raise if I'm UI.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm checking here because I'm afraid of a raise if I'm UI.

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So you'd 3-bet AK, then bet the flop, but then check-call the turn??

Re: ATs
 

I don't see many people trapping here, maybe that's why I'm not seeing this...

But maybe he's looking for a cheap showdown as well. A smooth call on the flop would send up warning signs if he's been paying attention to the type of player you are.

Re: ATs
 

Agree to disagree.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there are more than just "monsters" being 3-bet out of BB. Especially from a tricky player. I think you're losing out by not raising this flop at a minimum. This is about as good a board as you're gonna see with AT. If you cant bet this hand in this situation, you should be folding this preflop to a 3-bet.

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I don't agree with this. There is a decent chance that we're ahead, as villian could have something like AK or AQ. But there is also a decent chance that villian has an overpair. So IMO the flop is VERY standard, raising the flop is bad, let him bluff off AK or AQ if he wants. The turn is where you could make for betting when checked to. But what do we do if we get check raised? Puts you to a tough decision and against a tricky player checking behind can be good.

Re: ATs
 

The more I think about this I really think checking behind is the best play. If we get check raised the pot is 7.25BB back to us, and I'm going to have a hard time folding b/c villian might be doing it with a hand we beat or something like KK that we almost have odds to continue with. Also, we might not be losing taht many bets by checkijng behind if villian is going to fold something like 99 or AK UI. We might actually get a bet on the river from these hands taht we normallywouldn't. The only downside IMO is that we are giving free cards to hand that we currently beat, but against a tricky opponent I think checking behind might be best.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is what FPS is.
You have top pair top kicker in a 6-max table against an aggressive opponent and you do not throw in a RAISE anywhere because of what?!!

[/ QUOTE ]

We raise UTG, and a TAG 3 bets us from the BB. Personally, raising doesn't really enter my mind here, I treat it as WA/WB, and let him bluff off if he has AK or whatever.

Re: ATs
 

textbook

for the turn:
inducing a bluff &gt; betting out IMO

1 less bet to be made, but we are garunteed a showdown, rather than throw it away(from a villian C/R), or make a bet with no value

Re: ATs
 

Yeah, some nice posts by Tehox in here.

Re: ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there are more than just "monsters" being 3-bet out of BB. Especially from a tricky player. I think you're losing out by not raising this flop at a minimum. This is about as good a board as you're gonna see with AT. If you cant bet this hand in this situation, you should be folding this preflop to a 3-bet.

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I totally agree with that.
If I was villain I`d typically reraise 66 in this situation out of the BB. (But I`m probably more on the loose-aggressive side.) You should habitually raise these kinds of players on the flop with very strong hands to almost nothing.