Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

Major Tournament on Stars...80 percent of the field gone. Blinds 1000-2000 with 100 antes, avg stack 27K. BB has 12K, 1 big stack out there, everyone else average or below (2 others have around 12K, rest have 20-30). UTG folds, I have T22,100 and KJs. My image is tight-aggressive, my standard opening has been 6K. Fold, Raise, Mini-Raise, Push, Call?

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

i'd probaly push, dunno if that's right or not.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

UTG+1 KJS with 10.5bb at a full table is pretty easy preflop fold. You need to be in later position or have a shorter stack to take the risk of open pushing with a hand like KJs.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

With no table reads I fold. Raising just about anything pot commits you, and I don't think anyone is going to play with you with a hand worse than KJs. I'd save my chips and save them for spots where the chances of my raise getting called are lower, or I want my raise to be called.

-Rizen

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

Doesnt Harrington push in this exact same spot with KQo in LA and say it was definitely right? Are those 2 hands much different?

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

What do you think you get called w/ ? If it's anynthing similar to 99+,AJs+,AQo+, then it's +EV to push.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

I think that range is pretty accurate...maybe add 88, probably nothing lower. I assumed push was +EV with that range

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

Is there any argument to this hand being +Chip EV but not +tournament EV?

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

I think cEV and EV start to seperate more when A) you have a big stack that you're risking or B) you're pretty close to big money.

You don't really match either of those criteria currently.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

Yea I understand and agree with u, just making sure. So how big does the range have to expand to be looking at a
-EV push?

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

not sure, but if all of the guys behind you called with 55+,A5s+,KJs+,QJs,A6o+,Kqo

it would be -cEV.

That might be BB's calling range, but theres no way the whole table is like that.
--

I have a spreadsheet that calculates this, it's not complete, but if you wanted to mess around with it, lemme know and i can email it to you.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

10BBs you have to push that i think. You are of course rooting for everyone to fold. If there is a hand that dominates you behind, they are definitely going to call, but the huge blinds and antes compensate the pot odds a bit. There is also a chance that nobody will have anything good enough to call you with and you significantly increase your chipstack just with the blinds.

KJs is about the worst hand I would do this with UTG+1.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

Do you really think it's that easy of a fold? At around 10BB there is a decent chance that two big suited cards are the best you will see before being anted and blinded into oblivion. At least when you are first in, you still have enough chips to hurt someone, so most people will likely have to have a pretty good hand to call. There's definitely some fold equity there making it a bit of a semi-steal.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

So it seems like the consensus is a push...any merit to making it 5000-6000 and folding to a push?

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

[ QUOTE ]
So it seems like the consensus is a push...any merit to making it 5000-6000 and folding to a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know your opponent would only push TT+ and AJ+, I suppose you could fold, but even then it is close. If opponent is pushing with a more reasonable range (or if he is capable of pushing with nothing), the fold becomes pretty bad given the odds you are going to be getting...

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

i'm not sure if the consensus is to push... there was mixed opinions of it. I think a push is right, i'd like to ehar the reasoning the other guuys suggested it was wrong.

Re: Humor me please with a little Short Stack discussion!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesnt Harrington push in this exact same spot with KQo in LA and say it was definitely right? Are those 2 hands much different?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's LA? If you mean LP (late position), then that right there tells you that the 2 hands are much different.

If you have a tight agressive image here, pushing may be profitable, but I still probably fold here and wait it out. There's a chance that someone behind you will wake up with a pair or 2 big cards and with KJ, 2 big cards have you dominated more often than you'd like. You're NOT yet desperate enough to make a move like this in EP. I vote for a fold, though I don't think pushing is all that wrong. Calling is horribly wrong though.