JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

Whoa...long Subject

Anway, PFR is average something like 22/7/1.5
Villian here is 16/10/3.5 WTSD is 35% over 1100 hands

I raise the flop because I want the button and figure to have pfr beat. My hand is strong enough that I think folding is wrong, but calling really doesn't protect my hand. On the turn I checked, because I was uncertain of my hand's strength and didn't know how to handle a c/r from a very aggressive villian.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

granted a check-raise on the turn would suck, but if BB had two spades he'd totally bet the flop out, trapping the two of you between and hopfully getting a raise from CO. It would also suck to give him that free card.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

The fact that you just called the 3-bet makes it less likely that you will bet the turn (and in fact you didn't). This is turn makes it less likely for a turn c/r to succeed. Bettor should know this and lead the turn with a real hand. This makes me think spades. On the other hand, bettor seems so aggro that he may continue to bet a big flush draw on the turn. So it may indeed be a failed c/r. I.e. it's hard to say.

Given the fact that he's so aggro, I'm going to have to say I must bet this turn, call a raise, and call a river bet.

I hope he didn't show KQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or the like.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

I think I would have played it the same way. I don't know if it's the best line or not...

Did he at least flop two pair?

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

Bet turn.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

you have position. use it. bet the turn.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

Checking the turn behind here is a big mistake.

Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised. If villain is good enough to check-raise bluff a draw here, and you haven't recognized that he's that tricky, then he probably deserves to win this hand.

There is no play in poker which I think is lamer than players raising and reraising the flop out of positions with draws solely for the purpose of trying to dupe their opponents into giving a free card on the turn. (If they are doing it with an equity edge, that's fine). Don't fall victim to this lamest of poker gambits.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised.

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Even against an AF of 3.5?

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the turn behind here is a big mistake.

Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised. If villain is good enough to check-raise bluff a draw here, and you haven't recognized that he's that tricky, then he probably deserves to win this hand.

There is no play in poker which I think is lamer than players raising and reraising the flop out of positions with draws solely for the purpose of trying to dupe their opponents into giving a free card on the turn. (If they are doing it with an equity edge, that's fine). Don't fall victim to this lamest of poker gambits.

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I agree that if I am c/r'ed I have to fold, and agree this was the correct line.

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised.

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Even against an AF of 3.5?

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A 16/10/3.5 is probably and at least somewhat competent TAG. A 3.5 agg. factor is often reflective of the fact that this opponent folds a fair amount. Given their pre-flop numbers, it is not suggestive of totally overwhelming, push-you-out-of-the-pot-no-matter-the-cost aggression.

Needless to say, it is not high enough for me to commit to putting two more big bets into the pot to see a showdown were I to be check-raised on the turn.

Again, I'll reiterate that: If your opponent is check-raising this turn on a draw, then you may just have to allow yourself to be outplayed this one hand. Mike McDermott's four-bet coup against Johnny Chan notwithstanding, getting outplayed (or outplaying someone) in one hand is not the end of the world. If you get check-raised on this turn, statistically speaking you are not going to have enough equity on average to continue and the correct play is to fold.

[Another important thing to note is that the turn card is not scary. Your opponent would have to be extremely ambitious to think that a check-raise is going to get you to fold a pair of Js or better given a blank turn card. So, in order to check-raise with a bluff he'd either have to have a severe case of FPS or think he has a very good read on you. These are both longshots until proven otherwise.]

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

Looks like you got EP free carded. The donk figures he can 3bet you on the flop not only for his implied straight value but also so as to scare you into checking the turn.

I'd bet turn when checked to. Especially against an agressive villain.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

[ QUOTE ]
. Especially against an agressive villain.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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Aggression should deter you from betting

Re: JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act
 

I'd b/f the turn