How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I'm completely serious with this question. I've been playing quite a lot for the past 4 months, I've read Ciaffone's book, HOH1 and 2, some limit holdem books and am half way through TOP. I read lots of poker blogs, and this forum, and Pokertracker tells me I've played 65k hands total at various limits.

This seems like a shitload of study + practice, and I'm not that good. I'm 10ptbb/100 at 25nl after 20k hands, and I get destroyed when I move up. I don't understand this.

I read in the Alvarez book "The Biggest Game in Town" that pro players in vegas can look to log 80k hands in a year. I've almost done that in ~4 months, shouldn't I be way better than I am? Shouldn't I be able to destroy NL100 by now?

So I'm asking more experienced players and posters, people like jkkk, TWP, xorbie, kongtotte et al.. how long did it take you to get to NL100+? Am I slow?

Everyone seems to think that poker is a sweet way to earn money, and I think it is once you get good, but the more I play the worse I realise I am. I have so much to learn, and I want to learn as quick as possible.

This isn't a cockiness thing, I just am consistently overwhelmed by the skill needed for poker. You accumulate your edges, +1% here, +15% there, but then the one donkey call or bluff you make in a day can ruin all that edge.

What do others think? Am I right? Am I just experiencing a 3 week long downswing (must be contributing to my whininess)? Am I just being a little bitch?

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

1) I played for about 2 and 1/2 years before I was any good. (before internet explosion)

2) Only about 8% of all players make money at all.

3) As for moving up, you might need to take a look at any psychological problems you have with going to the next level. I haven't ever played .25-.5 or .5-1, but I'm guessing it's not a massive step up in competition. These psych problems dog every player.

4) Good luck.

Marlow

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

i've been playing/studying for about 8 months now before i was confident playing in 100NL. over how long of a time period are you getting "killed." you might just be unlucky and hitting downswings when you try

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

A long time. If you are going along on a path that you think will deliver you to your poker destination, you'll never get there.

I've played several times the number of hands you've played, read many more books, and studied much longer, and I'm learning something new every time I play.

You're doing fine. Just keep doing that. And try to remember why you play at all. It's not in order to improve.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you might just be unlucky and hitting downswings when you try

[/ QUOTE ]

yes if you really can't beat nl200 on down it's because the amounts are making you play worse, assuming you (OP) really are making 10BB/100 at nl25 long term.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I guess I play for three reasons

1) Fun

2) To learn a skill (I like learning things)

3) Money

It's not fun when you're not making money (seriously), so I just hope I'm learning

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

There are a shitload of intangibles learned through playing that can be really hard to conceptualise. Think about the times you 'knew' that calling the pot bet with a flush draw was dumb but somehow you put your money in anyway. Or the times you 'knew' that your bad session was just variance and randomness at work but still you decided to call that raise with AJo. Think about how easy it is to get emotionally involved in what should clearly be emotionless decisions. Poker isn't really a game that is won or lost based on what you know, it's a game that's won or lost based on what you DO!!!!

It takes a long time to learn how to do the things you know you should do regardless of how you feel, or how your running, or what happened last time etc.

in the words of a great sage "...do or do not. There is no try." Trying to play poker will cost you money.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

improve your hand reading skills.

learn what the betting patterns mean.

and play your hand in a way that maximizes win against worse hands while minimizing loss to better hands.

post more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing quite a lot for the past 4 months...I'm 10ptbb/100 at 25nl after 20k hands, and I get destroyed when I move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you're doing pretty well by most standards, better than "typical" probably.

Second, 20k hands works out to about 5k hands a month, which means you're probably running at least 2-3 tables at once. Consider running just one table at those higher limits as you get your feet wet. Specifically focus more on understanding what is going on at the table.

Third, since you have some data, its time to scour your PT database for leaks. Classify hands into groups and then look for systematic errors with each type of hand.

Fourth, in conjunction with your hands study, re-reread ToP, HoH and friends. Improvement in poker (at least for me) has been an interative process of playing, reading, evaluating my played hands, and then more playing.

If your game is anything like mine, you'll beat your head on the wall for a while with this process until something clicks and then it will all snap into focus at once.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

THe worst thing i do, is i'll do really really really really good. Call down right spots, bet right times, even get lucky every now and then. Double up my bankroll. Then I move up quickly. Don't do that.

And it takes forever to get good. I'm ok. Right now, I'm in a bad streak. Well, a break-even streak. I'm stuck at the same exact level. I'll win $10 and lose $8. Win $2 then immediately next session lose $3.

I get cocky, have a good run, then am steamrolled or humbled by my seeming inability to catch a card etc.

Here's how some pros view it. It's like bodybuilding. You'll make massive gains at first. BUt then, after those massive gains haev been achieved, you start to need to focus on the fine-point areas. Muscle definition, water balance, etc. In other words, it's not fun b/c your gains aren't that big, and the occasional leak, REALLY MEANS SOMETHING over the long - run. Even if you play badly enough in one hand to lose 10 cents. That 10 cents DOES ADD up...

it becomes detail oriented.

You gotta have fun. I gave up trying to make poker a career. It's like cooks who cook 24/7. COoking at home becomes boring if they cook too much.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

good post

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I find that if you multitable all your doing is playing the cards. This works much better in limit poker where everything is pot odds and math. NL is more about reads.
If your unable to win when you move up, try doing so with only 1 table. Don't let the clowns here tell you how much better 4 or 8 tables are.
NEVER take your eyes off the table inbetween hands, watch what players are doing and make notes.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I also believe you are likely just running bad when you have tried to move up. My only advice would be to keep reading and posting on this site. It has helped my game tremendously in the short time I have been here.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

Breathe. Post a touble hand. Breathe. Read a new poker book. Breathe. Play some more. Breathe.

"It's not how fast you get there, it's the enjoyment and beauty of the path you take."

Poker is like any other skill you learn. You will hit plateus, doubt yourself, and then suddenly have another break through. Then you'll keep playing, hit another plateu amd then have another break through.

If I had to classify, I think a few of the biggest things that seperate the fair-average players from the great players is the following:
1) Ability to focus, take in all available information and apply it.
2) Ability to understand flop textures - ie, understand what pocket cards and flops will win small pots/lose big ones and vice versa.
3) Hand reading ability
4) Understanding of bettting patterns based on flops and previous play with opponents.
5) Knowing when your opponent is weak and attacking regardless of what cards you hold (ie you play your opponents cards)
6) Understanding the flow of the table you're at and how to maximize the value of the flops you take.
7) Knowing when to switch gears and how to prode weaker opponents into making mistakes.

All of these skills take time to develop. Be patient.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

"Poker is like any other skill you learn. You will hit plateus, doubt yourself, and then suddenly have another break through. Then you'll keep playing, hit another plateu amd then have another break through. "

I think this is right... nice post.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

Read this . It helps me when I get in a funk.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I have only just now broken into a posative BB/100 at party sites after 6k hands. Obviously thats not a horrible downswing but for the 4k hands I played while trying to move up it was pretty terrible. I got knocked back 3 times from NL100 before making it stick. There were faults in my play but I was also getting horrible cards. Its a nasty situation because you're not sure how much you can blame the cards and how much to blame yourself because you have no frame of reference.

My solution is to head off and bonuswhore another site cheaply. Provided you have a neteller account you can move money around quickly without large penalties so its easy to do. I find this helps for a couple of reasons.

1. The bonus money gives you something of a cushion.
2. Its gives you a fresh start, which personally I find helps focus and sharpen my play, reevaluate my preflop range and other basics. It also gives something of a mental break which seperates you from the bad run on the other site.

After my 4k failed hands at -5BB/100 at party I moved to Fulltilt and then Absolute going at about 7-8BB/100 before moving back to party 15k hands later and whiping out my bad start in a couple of hands.

Note, I am in no way suggesting one site is unlucky, rigged or any of the hundreds of conspiricy theories out there.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

dude, everyone knows party is rigged, don't you read the chat in NL25? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

Heh. One of the funny things about bonus whoring around is that I've heard people on every site on the net claim that flushes/straights catch more often on that site than any other.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

How long does it take to get good at poker?

Forever. You will never be as good as you want to be. If you are then you should quit the game.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How long does it take to get good at poker?

Forever. You will never be as good as you want to be. If you are then you should quit the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point, I can't ever envisage a time where I think I'm at the top of my game.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

many players underestimate how long the long run really is.

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are a shitload of intangibles learned through playing that can be really hard to conceptualise. Think about the times you 'knew' that calling the pot bet with a flush draw was dumb but somehow you put your money in anyway. Or the times you 'knew' that your bad session was just variance and randomness at work but still you decided to call that raise with AJo. Think about how easy it is to get emotionally involved in what should clearly be emotionless decisions. Poker isn't really a game that is won or lost based on what you know, it's a game that's won or lost based on what you DO!!!!

It takes a long time to learn how to do the things you know you should do regardless of how you feel, or how your running, or what happened last time etc.

in the words of a great sage "...do or do not. There is no try." Trying to play poker will cost you money.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: How long does it take to get good at poker?
 

I suck at poker and will continue sucking until the day I die. I will never know enough or be good enough. I have no chance at ever being the best ever. I manage to live with it.

Of course, I plan to have a large enough bankroll to buy a private island with topless natives, but that has nothing to do with being 'good at poker'.