declaring all-in in a limit game
 

ok so after pechange (read other post about bad beat jackpot) and dinner, buddy and I go to san manuel tonight. I am sitting 3-6 with about 120 or so in front of me.

I get QJ off, dont remember position, maybe mp-lp. Anyway flop has a Qxt, dont remember better rounds either. turn is a T, river brings another Q, its me and another guy heads up at the end, I bet, he raises, reraise, etc,etc, finally after about 5 sets of this I say im all in, the dealer looks at me and says you cant say that, and I said I mean im going to reraise until i am all in, he said you cant do that, but the guy says I call. Then we sit there, anyway finally I called the guys last reraise and did the showdown.

SO i had like 60 left in front of me and he had like 20-30, he wins, had TT for quads which I didnt think he would have, was a new player and didnt have a read yet but thats not the point of the post.

Ok so now my question is was that all in declare actually binding? Nobody said anything about it but im just curious.
I remember a post about this but im not sure.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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Ok so now my question is was that all in declare actually binding?

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No. You have to go through the motions and raise, reraise, re-reraise, re-re-raise, etc. at the limit you are playing at until you are actually out of chips (instert house rules diclaimer here).

A dealer here recently got busted by gaming for allowing a few players to "cap it" to $30 in one betting motion in a 5/5 limit game without going through raise, reraise motions.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Sorry, but why in the world would you want to put 20 BBs into a pot with just a Q on a QQTTx board? If a guy puts in a 5th raise, shouldn't you be at least concerned? At best you're chopping, but at worst he has TT. Did you think he would keep reraising with just tens full?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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Ok so now my question is was that all in declare actually binding?

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No. You have to go through the motions and raise, reraise, re-reraise, re-re-raise, etc. at the limit you are playing at until you are actually out of chips (instert house rules diclaimer here).

A dealer here recently got busted by gaming for allowing a few players to "cap it" to $30 in one betting motion in a 5/5 limit game without going through raise, reraise motions.

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In jurisdictions with a max bet size there would be legal issues involved that would require betting in the amount of the limit.

When there are no legal issues when a pot is heads up if a player offers action and the other accepts, the action is binding (there are some that say you should trim back over bets in pot limit even heads up). If one player offers to go all in and the other player calls the first player is all-in.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

hows the carding situation at san manuel?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

A couple of years ago girlfriend is playing 15/30 and on the river is head up with this guy and it goes bet-raise-reraise-reraise-reraise and now the guy pushes about three stacks ($300 or so) into the pot and she says call and pushes her chips in. Normally there is no problem and the action stands since most people are a little bit honorable but now the guy realizes he is up against the nuts (stakes were around 15/30) and he pulls the big stacks back and says "just kidding". Floorman comes over and says he can't enforce an invalid raise so the guy gets to keep his money except for the last reraise.

Today a shift manager from another card club said he would rule the action stands but acknowledged he wouldn't be on firm ground after I told him about what happened to girlfriend at the other club.

This hits home because a couple of days ago I'm playing NL with this same guy who ripped off my girlfriend and after a few limpers BTF I put in a big raise and most fold but now one player is thinking about calling and this same POS who's not even in the hand tells the guy he "shouldn't call me I have a huge pair blah blah blah". After the guy folds I lay into the POS saying "You should keep your mouth shut when you're not in the hand and BTW I'll never forgive you for what you did to my girlfriend two years ago" and the table gets silent since usually I don't get into arguments and they may be thinking its some jealousy/sexual type thing but now I quickly tell the table the story above and say only someone dishonorable would do such a thing and the guy shuts up for twenty minutes which is good for him and for us since we had twenty minutes of him keeping his mouth shut which is the next best thing to heaven.

~ Rick

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

If you're only going 5 more bets, it's easier to just play them out. If you and your opponent are both very deep, then after six or seven bets I'd ask my opponent if they want to re-raise until all-in, and if they say yes, ask the dealer if that would be binding.

If the dealer says yes, I sincerely doubt any problems would follow.

If the dealer says no, the players can just sit there and say raise for the next two minutes.

I've won (and lost) some comically large pots this way.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

I have to say that I have been playing at pechanga exlusively since they did the new room, however not wanting to make the drive went there. The new poker room is nice, not quite as open as pechanga and not as many tables either. However the tables are very nice/new, chips seem new as well, some of the tables have shufflers some dont. Got there and there was a huge list for both 2/4 3/6 so we got on each list and in about 15-20 minutes we sat down. Dealers seem pretty competient, they can figure out multiple side pots fast, and seem to do a great job directing the action.

Play seemed normal fishy 3/6, other than the mistake I made on this hand, it seemed that if you played your solid holdem you could run the table, saw a lot of raises that would fold on the turn or river to a reraise.

Anyway I think this is my new place to play.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

I saw this type of thing happen in cali once where the house let both players go all-in without going through the raise/reraise motions. However, the VAST majority of houses nationwide won't let you do this, you'll have to go through the motions. "Gaming" is probably the reason why in most places they won't let you do this in a limit game.

If you have the absolute nuts, you should make damn sure where you're at on this topic before you go showing your hand.

al

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

wow. this is a pretty bad play.

did you just think he had a T?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

I am beginning to detect a pattern in your replys. Are you hinting that the OP is a fetus or are you a fetus that is looking for a place that is easy to sneak in to?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Requiring going through the raising and re-raising is pretty standard.

In MN this is an absolute MUST, as there is a $60 cap on all bets.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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In MN this is an absolute MUST, as there is a $60 cap on all bets.

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This is an issue a lot of places. There are a lot of floormen that work in places where irregular bets would be allowed ehads up, but they aren't familiar enough with certain aspects of the rules to realize it.

Other than going all-in in limit there are other irregular bets that would be allwoed heads up. In a NL games normally a raise must be at least the size of the previous bet; however heads up a smaller raise should be allowed (many rule books say "a raise must be at least the size of the previous bet unless heads up"). This NL rule is pretty clear, but I would wager that if we polled floormen working today less than 25% would allow the small raise.

Heads up in limit if action is offered and accpeted that action should be binding, but you run a risk of the floor being unfamiliar with the reasoning behind different rules.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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wow. this is a pretty bad play.

did you just think he had a T?

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The question wasnt regarding the play people, it was regarding the situation, I just won 1400 on a bad beat I didnt really care at this point GET OVER IT!!!

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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wow. this is a pretty bad play.

did you just think he had a T?

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The question wasnt regarding the play people, it was regarding the situation, I just won 1400 on a bad beat I didnt really care at this point GET OVER IT!!!

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I like how you feel the need to mention you won 1400 as if that excuses you from your poor play. BTW, how did you win 1400 when you said you were sitting at a 3/6 table w/ 120 in front of you?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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I like how you feel the need to mention you won 1400 as if that excuses you from your poor play. BTW, how did you win 1400 when you said you were sitting at a 3/6 table w/ 120 in front of you?

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Bad beat jackpot probably.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

I guess you don't want to hear that your play sucks... but it does. Why you would ever "go all in" for many bets without the nuts is mind boggling.

But I don't think your all in was binding.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Can't you come to an agreement about "going overs" when it's heads up?

Or is that a room-by-room rule?

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Ok I admit freely that the play was bad, and I wasnt saying that winning the bad beat was an excuse for that bad play. My point was that i wasnt asking if I played bad, I realized after the hand that I had, I was asking if my all in and his call should have been binding.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

mikel. made a post in Mid-High LHE a while ago about asking a guy if he just wanted to go all-in when they were h/u.

I then asked a few floormen in the Taj about this scenario. You and another player started the betting h/u and go about 5 bets. One player asks the other if he wants to just go all-in to save the time of constantly re-raising. The players agree and ask the dealer if it's ok. If the dealer called the floor, what would they say?

I spoke to a few floor people but I made sure to ask Ken, who's a smart, stand up guy. He said what they all did. That scenario would be ok to go all-in in a limit game.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

One more note on this if playign I think it is better to just keep raising, instead of slowing the action by asking if they want to go all in. They might reconsider their position.

I was once playing with a drunk that woudl raise to the felt heads up on the end as a bluff; not once in a while, but everytime he had no pair on the end all the money was going in (except I think I was the only one brave enough to go all-in with him without the nuts).

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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One more note on this if playign I think it is better to just keep raising, instead of slowing the action by asking if they want to go all in. They might reconsider their position.

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Good point. The reason I wanted to know was in case I was ever asked. I figured I'd ask the dealer if it was okay before answering and that could make it binding.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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One more note on this if playign I think it is better to just keep raising, instead of slowing the action by asking if they want to go all in. They might reconsider their position.

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Good point. The reason I wanted to know was in case I was ever asked. I figured I'd ask the dealer if it was okay before answering and that could make it binding.

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The dealer won't know. I mean the dealer might know, but the delaer can say one thing and then have the floor rule differently.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Hence the reason that players should just not make things up as they go along.

The dealers don't know.
randy is familiar with another rule that he thinks a minority of floor would know.
Obviously if they don't know then the players can't be expected to know either.

Poker rules are a big mystery and I'm getting the impression that we're all playing a game that nobody knows the rules to.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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The dealer won't know. I mean the dealer might know, but the delaer can say one thing and then have the floor rule differently.

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I wasn't saying the dealer would know and I wouldn't care if they did. It's all hypothetical. I'd just make sure the dealer was aware of it and then ask them if it was ok to avoid having them play dumb later and saying they didn't know what was going on.

FWIW - many Taj dealers are too lax with the rules. Things like a player moving more than 3 seats away from the button. Some dealers won't say anything and just keep dealing. The players have to take control and tell the dealer he has to post. Not good.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

You generally have to already have overs in place before a hand starts, otherwise everything I already said still applies.

al

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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Ok so now my question is was that all in declare actually binding?

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No. You have to go through the motions and raise, reraise, re-reraise, re-re-raise, etc. at the limit you are playing at until you are actually out of chips (instert house rules diclaimer here).

A dealer here recently got busted by gaming for allowing a few players to "cap it" to $30 in one betting motion in a 5/5 limit game without going through raise, reraise motions.

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I'm sure this is true in Colorado, where there is a $5 limit on all bets and the Gaming commission is notorious for never letting common sense interfere with a strictly literal interpretation of the regulations. However, it would not surprise me if cardrooms in states with less stringent regulations would allow players heads up in a limit game save time. If the rules permit them to do this, surely the all-in declaration should be binding, and and making an all-in declaration and not honoring it when called is the lowest form of angle shooting in any case.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

I had this happen at the Borg this past spring (3/6). I have AJ in the SB and complete. 5 to a flop of A A 4 rainbow. I bet out, only button (tightish college age kid) calls. Next card is a 3. I bet, he raises, I reraise, he reraises. Oops...he must have played A3, since he didn't look like a 2-5 kind of guy. I call. Last card, J.

It goes check-bet-raise-reraise-reraise. At this point, he says "If he's not stopping, I'm not", and pushes his chips(about $150) forward. I have him covered. Dealer, other players, and myself all say "You can't do that", the dealer takes another $12 off the stacks, declaring a raise.

I reraise, he says the same thing. Now the dealer gives me a look and I ask him "Will you let him do this?" He says "If you both want to, I have no problem". I check the board one more time to be sure I'm not missing a SF out there, say OK and call. He turns up A3o and left the room very quickly, muttering about his stupidity.

In reading Rick's comments in this thread, I probably should have asked for the floor right there, just to be sure he didn't pull something similar and try to take it all back after the fact.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Going all-in is conceptually different than raising 10+ times. It is much easier to go all-in with a second best hand than believe you are ahead after getting raised 10 times in a row. The idea during these fixed limit games is to help players stay in the game by not going bust (sort of a "protection" for the weaker players). Allowing a play that makes it easier to go bust would be against the nature of a fixed limit game. On a side note, I've wondered about this situation before, and I would only go more than 5 bets if I had the stone cold nuts. Hopefully I'll have an opponent willing to bet all her chips when that happens. I would still likely end up going through the actions anyway.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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The idea during these fixed limit games is to help players stay in the game by not going bust (sort of a "protection" for the weaker players). Allowing a play that makes it easier to go bust would be against the nature of a fixed limit game.

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Ahhh...so now limit poker is no longer a different game than no-limit, it's just training wheels until you are ready for no-limit. Boy oh boy I can't wait until I'm ready to graduate from my 40-80 LHE game to the 2/5 NLH game.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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The idea during these fixed limit games is to help players stay in the game by not going bust (sort of a "protection" for the weaker players). Allowing a play that makes it easier to go bust would be against the nature of a fixed limit game.

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Ahhh...so now limit poker is no longer a different game than no-limit, it's just training wheels until you are ready for no-limit.

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How on earth you made that inference from the post you're replying to is an utter mystery to me.

Limit poker keeps SOME players, the fish, in the game longer. That's not up for debate. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of poker or what poker game(s) you plan to play.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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The idea during these fixed limit games is to help players stay in the game by not going bust (sort of a "protection" for the weaker players). Allowing a play that makes it easier to go bust would be against the nature of a fixed limit game.

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Ahhh...so now limit poker is no longer a different game than no-limit, it's just training wheels until you are ready for no-limit.

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How on earth you made that inference from the post you're replying to is an utter mystery to me.

Limit poker keeps SOME players, the fish, in the game longer. That's not up for debate. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of poker or what poker game(s) you plan to play.

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This is why card rooms do not like spreading NL. They spread it most palces becasue the guests come in and that is all they want to play, but a lot less money goes down the rake in NL. The restricted buy-in games make it a little more like limit, so this keep the guests form busting as fast as they would in a standard NL game.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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You generally have to already have overs in place before a hand starts

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Ah, right. I wasn't sure if you could come to an agreement on the end, to save time for others, if you didn't have an "overs" agreement in place between you before the hand.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

Hey next time just 15 bet and fold to a 16 bet [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

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One more note on this if playign I think it is better to just keep raising, instead of slowing the action by asking if they want to go all in. They might reconsider their position.

I was once playing with a drunk that woudl raise to the felt heads up on the end as a bluff; not once in a while, but everytime he had no pair on the end all the money was going in (except I think I was the only one brave enough to go all-in with him without the nuts).

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This happened to me last weekend at 10/20. I turned quad aces and sure enough, drunk guy starts reraising and saying his aces full has to be good enough. We go 13 bets till I am out and I show him the bad news. Without missing a beat he drunkenly mumbles, "That's the first time I've had 4 aces shoved up my arse. NH." I'm pretty sure if I tip him off that I'll go all the way with him he folds.

Re: declaring all-in in a limit game
 

i did this one time in a 4/8 game in aruba. flop was Q75 and i had QQ, villain had AA. we just kept raising until he proposed we go all in, i said ok.