Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 7: Hero ( $592.70 )
Seat 9: X ( $389.40 )
Seat 4: X ( $400.20 )
Seat 5: X ( $400 )
Seat 1: X ( $265.80 )
Seat 10: X ( $180.95 )
Seat 3: X ( $396 )
Seat 8: Villain ( $280 )
Seat 2: X ( $80 )
X posts small blind [$2].
X posts big blind [$4].
Villain posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9d Qs Qc Td ]

X folds.
X folds.
Hero calls [$4].
Villain raises [$11].
X folds.
X calls [$13].
X folds.
Hero calls [$11].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Jd, 7c ]

X checks.
Hero bets [$46.55].
Villain calls [$46.55].
X calls [$46.55].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]

X checks.
Hero bets [$90].
Villain calls [$90].
X folds.

** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]

Hero bets [$200].

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

I probably would have checked the turn. I'd be more likely to try this bluff heads up but with two people in, it's too likely someone likes the board pairing.

The river bet is OK since it puts the villain allin, and he might call with a 7. If he's aggressive, though, I think check/call would be better.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

Weak-tight maybe, but I check/fold the turn here, especially in this multi-way situation. You'll get into a very tough spot if a player in later position calls you, regardless of what the river card may be. I don't really see the point of making a blocking bet at the river though because you're not going to get a better hand to fold and a worse hand will probably fold. Looks like more of a choice of check-calling/check-folding the river.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

The river bet isn't a blocking bet--it's a value bet. I think the Villain definitely has a hand I beat but that he won't bluff into a board that he didn't raise on the turn.

The turn bet is suspect, I agree, but I think it's the amount that's wrong. I should have bet less, maybe half the pot instead of 80% or whatever it is. That would be a good spot for the blocking bet. I think if I check there I get taken off my hand.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

You aren't worried about AA?

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

Worried? I'm hoping he calls w/ AA, and that's a likely hand for him to have played this way. (I have a straight, it seems like some people missed that)

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

Assuming he has AA, are you thinking that your turn bet priced you in to draw out, or was it purely a semibluff? I thought this was the issue the previous poster was raising, and it affects the size of the turn bet that makes the most sense. Personally, I think you are drawing to a Q far too often here, but it depends a lot on your opponents playing style.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming he has AA, are you thinking that your turn bet priced you in to draw out, or was it purely a semibluff? I thought this was the issue the previous poster was raising, and it affects the size of the turn bet that makes the most sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
My bet on the turn is meant to intimidate and set up a river all-in almost regardless of what card comes off. I want it to look like I'm milking him. Of course, if he pushes, I'm in trouble, and I think I'd have to seriously consider folding--but I don't sense any strength based on the prev action in the hand, and that board is scary for anything that doesn't raise the flop, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think you are drawing to a Q far too often here, but it depends a lot on your opponents playing style.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? What do you put him on? A seven? No fking way.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

Well, at the time of the turn bet, there are still two people in the pot. Whether the bet makes sense is a combination of a lot of factors, including the chance you are drawing dead, getting AA to fold, the flush hitting on the river, and you hitting the straight and getting paid off.

After the turn flat call by only the preflop raiser, the river bet seems like the right move (although betting less might be OK, too). The turn bet is much less clear to me since there is a pretty large range of hands they could be playing. Taking a peak at their Fold to Flop Bet % might help.

If it was me, I might make the same move, except the river would brick, I'd bet allin and get called by AA. In general, it seems like you are overplaying a mediocre drawing hand, but maybe it's a money-making opportunity in PLO8 that I haven't mastered yet.

Re: Party $400 PLO8 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, at the time of the turn bet, there are still two people in the pot. Whether the bet makes sense is a combination of a lot of factors, including the chance you are drawing dead, getting AA to fold, the flush hitting on the river, and you hitting the straight and getting paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, it might matter that the guy who folded on the turn was relatively short (he's the one w/ $180 at the start of the hand). So I figured any strength from him and we'd have heard about it on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

After the turn flat call by only the preflop raiser, the river bet seems like the right move (although betting less might be OK, too). The turn bet is much less clear to me since there is a pretty large range of hands they could be playing. Taking a peak at their Fold to Flop Bet % might help.

If it was me, I might make the same move, except the river would brick, I'd bet allin and get called by AA. In general, it seems like you are overplaying a mediocre drawing hand, but maybe it's a money-making opportunity in PLO8 that I haven't mastered yet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I sort of agree (about me overplaying marginal hands)--that's why I'm posting these marginal hands. I've definitely been running well. Trying to defend these weird plays will hopefully keep me from going off the deep end with "creative" semi-bluffs. I'm going to put another couple hands in this thread, take a look at them for me.

couple more bluffing hands
 

Maybe it's just because semibluff/bluffs like this have been working out well in general lately, but I think they're good in the long run against typical high-limit players--of course in heads up many of the situations have to do with the way the game's been going, type of opponent and all that. But I suspect you have to make these plays to win convincingly at these levels, the opponents are just too good and not giving you an inch unless you steal it occasionally.


$2000 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Villain ( $1846.50 )
Hero ( $2508.06 )
Villain posts small blind [$10].
Hero posts big blind [$20].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 2c Kc 9h 5s ]

Villain raises [$50].
Hero calls [$40].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, Qc, 7d ]

Villain checks.
Hero checks.

** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]

Villain bets [$119].
Hero calls [$119].

** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]

walt610 bets [$357].
Hero raises [$1000].
Villain folds.

Hero does not show cards.
Hero wins $1714



---------------------------------------------------------

$2000 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Hero ( $1907.50 )
Villain ( $2069.50 )
Villain posts small blind [$10].
Hero posts big blind [$20].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 2h 8h Ad Jc ]

Villain raises [$50].
Hero calls [$40].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 7c, Qh ]

Villain checks.
Hero checks.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]

Villain bets [$119].
Hero raises [$325].
Villain calls [$206].

** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]

Villain checks.
Hero bets [$769].
Villain folds.
Hero does not show cards.
Hero wins $1538

Re: couple more bluffing hands
 

Well, head up is, of course, very different in terms of bluffing standards than a full ring game. The second hand, in particular, I would consider just part of the normal "ground game", where you're trying to pick up enough small pots to avoid getting grinded away while looking for a big score.

The first hand is fine, too, though for a different reason. The Villain's river bet smells a lot like a missed low draw and AT is a possible but unlikely combination considering the preflop and turn action. The only questionable part is flat calling the turn, but since it is so small in absolute dollars (relative to stack sizes), it's not worth that much analysis.

In general, these are not all that sophisticated or questionable, at least compared to the original hand you posted. (Assuming these are relatively "good" players.)

Re: couple more bluffing hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first hand is fine, too, though for a different reason. The Villain's river bet smells a lot like a missed low draw and AT is a possible but unlikely combination considering the preflop and turn action. The only questionable part is flat calling the turn, but since it is so small in absolute dollars (relative to stack sizes), it's not worth that much analysis.


[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, although the bet size relative to the stack size is not large, the absolute dollar amounts on these tables is a significant factor affecting play IMO. On a $200 table, this would be a $11.90 turn call and $100 river bluff. That's just not as likely to have an intimidating effect on a $200 stack as a $119 call and $1000 bluff are to have on a $2000 stack, for many (but not all) players. This is certainly debatable, just my observations based on my own experience and the fact that the game is much more bluffable.

What I'm getting at is that the turn call is the most aggressive part of the hand IMO. Raising on the turn is OK, but I open myself up to the same bluff I ran on the river if I don't pick the pot up there or catch on the river, and I have to worry about better low drawing, catching, and pushing me off junk high that might be good. Folding isn't really an option, my hand is too good to fold there. Calling is best IMO because I'm setting up a big river bet in many more circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]

In general, these are not all that sophisticated or questionable, at least compared to the original hand you posted. (Assuming these are relatively "good" players.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Hm. That's weird, I was thinking the first hand I was mainly betting for value the whole way (with bluff possibility if I miss the river), these last two I feel like I either outplayed the guy (both hands) or maybe just got real lucky (2nd hand).