To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

For many years poker has been played in New York with out any problems. The Mayfair club operated for a long time. People were not open about were these places were, they were protective. Now these places have websites. They have tried to take an underground game and bring it into the “sunlight”. Well its time for these clubs to go back into “the shadows”. No more websites, no more email marketing. Do it the old fashion way. Word of mouth and keep it small. If you are not referred by an existing active member then you should be denied access to club. Lets remember that it is still illegal to run a club in Manhattan, however it is also illegal to deal drugs. I make this analogy because drug dealers do not advertise through email marketing. Its marketed very quietly and underground.

To all players I say continue to support the places that are still in business but PLEASE KEEP YOU MOUTH SHUT about where they are.

To the people who run the websites and posting services I say STOP mentioning the clubs by name and by location. Just STOP talking about them. All this is doing is flaunting in the face of the cops what illegal activity is going on.

And to the club owners, STOP marketing through websites and emails. This is the fuel that drives the cops to your clubs. Try to find a few good players and reward them for bringing you new players, but you also need to think about limiting the number of players that you allow. If you keep it small, you wont flaunt it in the face of the police.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

I agree with the sentiment but the history isn't entirely accurate. The Mayfair used to adverstise in the Village Voice and NY Press.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I make this analogy because prostitution is not advertised through email marketing. Its marketed very quietly and underground.


[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding me.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

So how is a potential player who is not "in the know" find out about these places. Do you go up to a complete stranger on the street and ask about any cardrooms?

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

"So how is a potential player who is not "in the know" find out about these places. Do you go up to a complete stranger on the street and ask about any cardrooms?"

Actually the way I found the underground cardrooms where I used to live was by talking about poker with people. "So what did you do this weekend" "Well I drove three hours to the casino to play some poker"

Eventually that lead me to meet other people who played poker. This got me an invite to a home game, someone at the home game invited me to a game at a "social club" and from that game I heard of of ther games etc.,etc.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

I actually think the clubs should develop a "secure cashier" system, where chips are paid for (and redeemed) offsite from the actual club where play occurs. (Think Japanese Pachkinko parlor approach.)

You go to location A and give the cashier $500. He makes an electronic entry that authorizes you for a rack of reds. You then go to location B and pick up your rack of reds. After pummelling the monkeys for 4 hours, you now have two racks of reds. You take them to the cage at location B, and the cashier there makes an electronic entry authorizing you to pick up $1000. You walk to location A, show ID, and pick up your money.

If the cops ever come to location B, the cashier at location A leaves with the money. The floor at location B takes a chip inventory. Players redeem later.

Granted, there are some security/embezzlement risks with this approach, but if it were done correctly, bankrolls would be a lot more secure.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I make this analogy because prostitution is not advertised through email marketing. Its marketed very quietly and underground.


[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it how he edited in drug dealers instead of prostitutes.

Swede

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
You go to location A and give the cashier $500. He makes an electronic entry that authorizes you for a rack of reds. You then go to location B and pick up your rack of reds. After pummelling the monkeys for 4 hours, you now have two racks of reds. You take them to the cage at location B, and the cashier there makes an electronic entry authorizing you to pick up $1000. You walk to location A, show ID, and pick up your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This approach would only matter in the unlikely case that the police accidently stumble onto the game. If the police actually get info about the game in advance and go out and get warrants they are likely to hit hit your cashier too.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the sentiment but the history isn't entirely accurate. The Mayfair used to adverstise in the Village Voice and NY Press.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were also listed in the phonebook, and either the Diamond or the Mayfair had an early weblisting with a phone number.

Remember the Mayfair was a legit backgammon club originally. Why it's legal to charge table time for a backgammon game that's being wagered on is legal and a poker room is not is another issue entirely.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

If this is in fact true, and you're really concerned about that, you could have the money taken from Location A regularly to a secret location C every few hours (location known only to a small number of people). When you go to redeem, if there isn't enough cash at location A, you have to wait around while the money is brought from location C.

Certainly this approach would work VERY well for something like a tournament. It is more cumbersome with cash games where redemptions are happening all the time.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

You need to take the japanese approach completely. They play for prizes. Some of the prizes available are collectable coins, then they walk down the street and sell their collectable coins.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

Instead of a "Location A and C" how about transferring through neteller? Or is their person to person transfer fee too high? Of course, any fees related could be deemed insurance for the cops not being able to confiscate your bankroll.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

Of course you guys are assuming that the poker room owners want to have a different system in place.

The poker room owner is making money.

Is it a hassle? You bet.

Is it still profitable for him to run the club? I would think so, otherwise they wouldn't reopen.

From a poker room operator/owner standpoint..."it's not necessarily broken"...so they aren't interested in fixing it.

Dave

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective...In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same law that makes profiting from gambling activity illegal also makes "advancing gambling activity" illegal.

The DA could argue that just by providing cards, chips, and a place to play that you are in violation of the law, profit or not.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]

The same law that makes profiting from gambling activity illegal also makes "advancing gambling activity" illegal.

The DA could argue that just by providing cards, chips, and a place to play that you are in violation of the law, profit or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...a point. But in this instance they would have to arrest and try 100 or more people who are members of the collective since there is no individual owner or promoter.

If it could be done with money on deposit, there would be no money to confiscate. And if it isn't clear to anyone that this is a big part of these raids look again, they want cash. They timed the BW raid to coincide with the eve of a big buy-in tourney...not a coincidence. They also always raid on the busiest night and at the busiest times. They love to see "over $50,000 seized" "over $100,000 seized".

So the DA would be faced with issuing a warrant and carrying out a raid where no cash is confiscated. Then having everyone present step up as an "owner". They would need to arrest the 50 to 100 people present and then run them all through the system. All the evidence they could provide to a judge and or jury would be playing cards and chips. I can imagine the DA saying "well...no there wasn't any actual cash on the premises". I'm not sure they would want to deal with this or the possible ramifications (ie: if they lose they essentially publicly legalize this type of establishment).

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

Actually if you read the NY penal code. No person actually need profit from the operation. A person is guilty of promoting gambling if they profit from OR ADVANCE gambling activity. This pretty much would make the organizers of the game criminally liable evene if not taking a rake or collection. Also if your not self dealt your dealers aren't going to be working for free are they . . . they will be profiting.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm...a point. But in this instance they would have to arrest and try 100 or more people who are members of the collective since there is no individual owner or promoter.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no legal requirement that says you have to arrest and convict everyone who has committed a crime in order to convict anyone who committed the crime.

You now want to take a system where they arre not arresting the players and convert it to a system where they are arresting the players . . . good idea

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're golden!

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your lawyer friend is wrong. Section 225.00(5) of the Penal Law provides as follows:

"Profit from gambling activity." A person "profits from gambling activity" when, other than as a player , he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity. (emphasis added)

I hope you didn't have to pay for his advice.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

While I agree that this lawyers advice was of base, your response leaves out a little bit as well

PL 225.00(4)

[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity"
when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which
materially aids any form of gambling activity. Such conduct includes but
is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment
of the particular game, contest, scheme, device or activity involved,
toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia,
equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement
of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the
playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement of any of its financial
or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. One
advances gambling activity when, having substantial proprietary or other
authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for
purposes of gambling activity, he permits such to occur or continue or
makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
§ 225.05 Promoting gambling in the second degree.
A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the second degree when he
knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity.
Promoting gambling in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the point is that one need not profit from the gambling activity, merely advancing the activity is illegal.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

First I was going to say that this 100% incorrect -- but it is not. However, the law is far more nuanced then TT's attempted analogy makes it appear. The law has circular definitions.

In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law. The club would also not last more than a few months as it would like collapse under its own weight.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean it would be legal you would be wrong. If you mean that it would be left alone by the cops you are probably correct.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean it would be legal you would be wrong. If you mean that it would be left alone by the cops you are probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, as a matter of fact and law I would be correct. [I am talking about a club in the form of cooperative discussed earlier in this thread -- which would actually be more of a home game than a poker room anyway.]

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

Explain to me how yoyur little private cooperative club is going to avoid advancing gambling activity as defined by NY Law as:
[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity"
when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which
materially aids any form of gambling activity. Such conduct includes but
is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment
of the particular game, contest, scheme, device or activity involved,
toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia,
equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement
of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the
playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement of any of its financial
or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. One
advances gambling activity when, having substantial proprietary or other
authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for
purposes of gambling activity, he permits such to occur or continue or
makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this club going to come into existence without someone organizing it, soliciting player/members, where is the game going to be held . . . if you rent space someone is going to be responsible for renting the space. Tables are just going to spring up at the location? Chips will just magically appear (you could play with cash), whose going to make sure that only memebrs get in? how are memebership fees going to get collected, who will hold them? If not self dealt who hires the dealers? In case of dispute is there a floorperson?

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

If you think about it, this whole thread goes against the idea behind the op. What are the odds that someone with NYPD is reading this board? What are the odds that someone with NYPD has registered here and is posting in these threads to keep them going? How do you know?

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

Read the definition of player in the statute:

[ QUOTE ]
"Player" means a person who engages in any form of gambling solely as a contestant or bettor, without receiving or becoming entitled to receive any profit therefrom other than personal gambling winnings, and without otherwise rendering any material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation of the particular gambling activity.

A person who gambles at a social game of chance on equal terms with the other participants therein does not otherwise render material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation thereof by performing, without fee or remuneration, acts directed toward the arrangement or facilitation of the game, such as inviting persons to play, permitting the use of premises therefor and supplying cards or other equipment used therein.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now reread the section you quoted:

[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity" when, acting other than as a player , he engages in conduct

[/ QUOTE ]

If no one is receiving "fee or remuneration" they are players and not advancing (or profiting from) gambling activity.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think about it, this whole thread goes against the idea behind the op. What are the odds that someone with NYPD is reading this board? What are the odds that someone with NYPD has registered here and is posting in these threads to keep them going? How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

The op is against the idea behind the op...

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
The op is against the idea behind the op...


[/ QUOTE ]

nh, sir.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

This defintion distinguishes the guy who organizes a social game in his house who is other than being the guy who organized the game is on no different footing than the other players.

But in your scenario not everyone who is a member is going to be playing in all the time.

So Member A rents the building. Buys the tables gets the chips and cards. If he is sitting in the game he is a player. But next week he is still the guy on the lease who bought the tables and he isn't playing. Now is his defense that he is a player?

How about the floorman? is he a player? How about your dealers (thgis problem goes away if self dealt) Someone is collecting money to pay for all this this is no longer without fee or renumeration. The guy at the door making sure only members enter . . . is he a player?

As

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

First I was going to say that this 100% incorrect -- but it is not. However, the law is far more nuanced then TT's attempted analogy makes it appear. The law has circular definitions.

In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law. The club would also not last more than a few months as it would like collapse under its own weight.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Your first instinct was correct. The analogy is 100% wrong.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about...

[/ QUOTE ]

And you proved my point. I said it was a nuanced arguments. Nothing is 100% clear but this would be a very tough case for law enforcement. Anyway, given the logistical nightmare, it is highly unlikely the idea would work. But if it worked, it is highly unlikely that it would ever be raided. But if it was raided, it is highly unlikely that there could ever be a conviction.

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

You actually have it backwards.

A conviction is very likely. But even if it doesn't result in a conviction, there is no penalty to police for making these arrests. Since there is no penalty to the police nuanced arguments about why it is legal carry littlw weight.

Furthermore assuming the people involved don't have criminal records I expect that the plea offer that will be made to them will amke it substantially worthwhile to take the plea rather than rely on what you call nuanced arguments of legality.

So . . You get arrested for Promoting Gambling in the 2nd degree a Class A misdemeanor with a possible penalty of a year in jail and a fine of $1,000. You have no criminal record and you are offered a plea arrangment where you plead to a Class B Misdemeanor pay a fine of $500 and don't contest the forfeiture of any seized money. Your Lawyer will charge you from $5,000-$10,000 to take the case to trial and if you are convicted you are likely to end up doing jail time, (maybe not the full year but you that is a risk -- actually even if you get the full year you'll be out in 8 months.) Now do you really want to raly on this nuance argument or are you going to just pay the $500 and move on.

Oh and if you get convicted and want to appeal your attorney is going to charge you another $5,000 to $10,0000 for the first level of appeal if you really want to push your nuanced argument.

If you don't get what I'm saying . . . The deck is stacked in favor of the prosecution especially in low level offenses where the costs of fighting often exceed the penalties the prosecution is seeking to impose.

of and the seized money . . . since this money isn't all yours there is little incentive for you to spend a lot of money to fight for the return of the money (which presumably you would then be returning to the people who bought chips).

Re: To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
You actually have it backwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't.

[ QUOTE ]
The deck is stacked in favor of the prosecution especially in low level offenses where the costs of fighting often exceed the penalties the prosecution is seeking to impose.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is true -- but you are arguing the facts not the law. A plea is very likely in any small offense regardless of guilt. If you get a parking ticket for less than $50, you are more likely to pay it than fight it -- even if you parked in a way that was 100% legal. A conviction after trial and appeal (if it ever got that far) for advancing /profiting from gambling based on a cooperative gambling group is nearly impossible... but this is like arguing about angels on the head of a pin and I am going to stop here.