Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

This just seems extremely ridiculous to me. Sit there, observe your table, and only play pocket aces if you have to, but to completely miss everything and sacrifice your blinds? What the hell?

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

phil helmuth does because hes a prick. what other pros are you refering to?

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

i've seen a lot of pros do it, even if they're only 15 minutes late. hell if i was plocking down X thousand dollars i'd be there an hour early.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Table image

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Table image

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Creating the image of being invisible by not being there?

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Somewhere in the archives, there is a good answer from Paul Phillips about this.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

also for the ME i think that it started a little earlier than all the rest which is why DN ran in confised and late.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This just seems extremely ridiculous to me. Sit there, observe your table, and only play pocket aces if you have to, but to completely miss everything and sacrifice your blinds? What the hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I did a post about this awhile back. This is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my life. There is no good explanation for it. When Phil got there he had 9450 in chips left. Why would you give away more than 5% of your chips for no reason? I was also reading that Thomas Keller came in 2 hours late..

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

then busted out in 15min.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

This is just a guess, but the idea that a player doesn't need to be there at first, or isn't afraid to miss a few minutes, or just plain isn't too worried about the tournament, could well be intimidating.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

What i found more absurd was how many get up and leave during the tournament for long stretches of time. I saw Hellmuth walk around for at least 45 minutes promoting a party he was going to host that night during the 10K PLO tourney. Thats crazy...

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

I'd guess on average its

50% Ego
25% Strategic/Image/ Intimidation
25% Just plain late or does not want to fight the crowds early on

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Am I doing something wrong when I use the search function, or does 2+2's search engine just suck? I looked up "paul" and "pros" and "tournaments" and "late", and get a list of tons of posts just from today. I don't seem to be quite as inept using other search functions.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

An online pro like Thomas Keller probably averages over $1K per hour that he plays on the internet (and possibly a lot more than that as he 3 or 4 tables nosebleed games like 300/600). If he is in a tourney that costs $5K to enter, if he comes 2 hours late he has effectively slashed the entry fee dramatically. Starting a tourney with 95% of your chips but "paying" only 50% or 60% of the entry fee is a solid tradeoff. I'm not saying that they're actually playing online poker instead of showing up, it's just a thought.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I doing something wrong when I use the search function, or does 2+2's search engine just suck? I looked up "paul" and "pros" and "tournaments" and "late", and get a list of tons of posts just from today. I don't seem to be quite as inept using other search functions.

[/ QUOTE ]

type "paul phillips" into the username section when you search.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Then why play at all?

Its either a legit reason, like got stuck in traffice, but mostly just excessive ego and being an arrogant shmuck.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Or he was playing a cash game until 6:00 a.m. and knew he wouldn't be on his A game, so he showed up late to catch up on sleep, thus improving his tournament EV. Of course this could only be true if he was hours late, not 15 minutes, as I doubt 15 minutes sleep would make much difference for anybody.

After submitting my hypothesis, I think it's just because he had it set up. What are the odds that ESPN just happened to have a camera in front of the Rio to show Phil arriving in his limo. He set it up to get more 20 year old frat boys worshipping at the altar of bad boy Phil, thus improving his lifetime EV.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Same reason there's always some self-image obsessed types (of coures not applying to everyone late) who show up to parties late "by accident".

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

I'm assuming that it's the same reason any middle age man who has worked his 9-5 desk job for the last 15 years. He'll start showing up a little late a few days of the week and taking and extra long lunch break. To the interns in the company they can't understand why this guy isn't working, why he just don't seem to care anymore. Well to the pros this is just another day at the office.

It psychs the other players out and it allows the pro to 'make an entrance'.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

It is simply called attention no other reason.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

its bc their rich and they want everyone to know its not about the money to them.. bastards.. afterall its only 10k at most to enter one of those big tournies.. i.e. the 25/50$ NL on UB, they sit down with 5-10k..

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

For the same reason dogs lick their own balls...
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Because they can.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a guess, but the idea that a player doesn't need to be there at first, or isn't afraid to miss a few minutes, or just plain isn't too worried about the tournament, could well be intimidating.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is intimidating then the intimidated player should take up slots. Most pros show up on time and ready to play. Some get tied up with media, fans, phone calls, etc. and are a few minutes late. A-holes like Hellmuth who are fashionably late are only hurting themselves. Given Phil's God-awful tournament record over the last several years it ain't working!

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is intimidating then the intimidated player should take up slots. Most pros show up on time and ready to play. Some get tied up with media, fans, phone calls, etc. and are a few minutes late. A-holes like Hellmuth who are fashionably late are only hurting themselves. Given Phil's God-awful tournament record over the last several years it ain't working!

[/ QUOTE ]

God-awful? Did you even do any research on this, or is this just another off-the-cuff opinion based on a couple of episodes on ESPN? I'm not particularly a huge fan of Hellmuth, but "God-awful" is just a bit extreme, don't you think?

26-Jun-05 $ 5,000 Pot Limit Omaha
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 8th $ 70,625
19-Jun-05 $ 1,500 Pot Limit Omaha
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 10th $ 5,080
05-Jun-05 $ 1,500 Limit Hold'em
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 42nd $ 4,200
03-Jun-05 $ 1,500 No Limit Hold'em
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 24th $ 15,905
05-Mar-05 Heads-Up No Limit Hold'em
2005 National Heads-Up Poker Championship, Las Vegas 1st $ 500,000
14-Dec-04 $ 15,000 World Poker Tour Championship - No Limit Hold'em
Five-Diamond World Poker Classic, Las Vegas 41st $ 21,781
01-Sep-04 No Limit Hold'em - Tournament of Champions
World Series of Poker Tournament of Champions, Las Vegas 2nd
20-Aug-04 € 5,710 Episode 3
The Gaming Club World Poker Championship (Pot Limit Hold'em), Dublin 3rd
14-May-04 $ 3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 7th $ 34,880
10-May-04 $ 2,000 Pot Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 6th $ 29,800
09-May-04 $ 2,000 Omaha Hi-Lo Split
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 21st $ 2,580
02-May-04 $ 2,500 Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 26th $ 3,280
26-Apr-04 $ 1,500 Omaha Hi-Lo Split
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 17th $ 4,120
14-Nov-03 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em WPT Event
2003 World Poker Finals, Mashantucket 3rd $ 281,700
01-Oct-03 $ 1,000 No Limit Hold'em
2003 Four Queens Poker Classic, Las Vegas 7th $ 3,055
17-Sep-03 $ 9,800 No Limit Hold'em Main Event
2003 United States Poker Championship, Atlantic City 3rd $ 116,424
30-Jun-03 $ 1,500 Pot Limit Omaha
Festa al Lago, Las Vegas 4th $ 8,585
09-Jun-03 € 1,000 World Heads Up Poker Championships 2003
Austrian Masters 2003, Vienna 33rd
19-May-03 $ 10,000 World Championship Event
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 27th $ 45,000
15-May-03 $ 3,000 No Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 1st $ 410,860
10-May-03 $ 3,000 Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 6th $ 15,040
30-Apr-03 $ 1,500 Limit Omaha
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 3rd $ 15,800
26-Apr-03 $ 2,500 Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 1st $ 171,400
23-Apr-03 $ 2,000 H.O.R.S.E.
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 12th $ 3,160
14-Apr-03 $ 25,000 WPT Championship - No Limit Hold'em
2003 Bellagio Five-Star World Poker Classic WPT Championship, Las Vegas 20th $ 15,999
09-Feb-03 $ 1,000 Omaha Hi/Lo
2003 L.A. Poker Classic, Los Angeles 1st $ 55,485
28-Jan-03 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em Championship - WPT
The Fourth Annual Jack Binion World Poker Open, Tunica 10th $ 1

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

in a 10k event where the blinds start at 25-50 (200x the BB), a player that has an agressive postflop style that is based around stealing pots off weak players doesnt have a whole lot to gain by taking a few $200 pots in the first level (hellmuth and negranu are two examples of this)

the chance that they could suffer a bad beat that knocks them out of the tournament is relatively high compared to other more ABC style players when there is an almost non-existent chance that they will double up (the vast majority of internet qualifiers/dead money are playing scared out of their wits and uber-tight the first hour or two)

yes, this applies to just about every other pro in the tournament, but it is FAR more applicable to a player that is playing twice as many hands as anyone else.

they also will not realize that the pots are getting stolen from them at first, because they will have had no prior play with the agressive pro, and the obvious intimidation factor with many internet qualifiers. (i dont care what people say, if a main event bracelet winner sat down at my table i would be scared shitless at first)

if you really want to just summarize it -

when the stacks of the weak players are deep (having more than 100x the BB) their pressure-applying postflop strategy isnt worth the risk.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

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For the same reason dogs lick their own balls...
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Because they can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because next they're gonna lick your face.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]

28-Jan-03 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em Championship - WPT
The Fourth Annual Jack Binion World Poker Open, Tunica 10th $ 1

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting payout structure.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

My suspicion, and this is only a newbie guess, is that it's part image, part being just plain late, and part confidence. I've noticed that as I have gotten better, it doesn't matter too much how many chips you have when you start to play. For example, and I'm sure the veteran poker players here understand, there have been many times I've been short stack and have come back to place or win a small tourney. Pros figure, I'm assuming, that the majority of players at the WSOP aren't even remotely as good as them, so they take their time, lose a couple hundred (heck, maybe even thousand) bucks off their stack, then proceed to win it back with expert play...

That's my guess.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

I bet Sammy Farha was glad he showed up on time [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet Sammy Farha was glad he showed up on time [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

Phil was late in 89' when he won the ME so he decided to show up late every year.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My suspicion, and this is only a newbie guess, is that it's part image, part being just plain late, and part confidence. I've noticed that as I have gotten better, it doesn't matter too much how many chips you have when you start to play. For example, and I'm sure the veteran poker players here understand, there have been many times I've been short stack and have come back to place or win a small tourney. Pros figure, I'm assuming, that the majority of players at the WSOP aren't even remotely as good as them, so they take their time, lose a couple hundred (heck, maybe even thousand) bucks off their stack, then proceed to win it back with expert play...

That's my guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you sure this makes any sense? they play expertly by getting into hands, more hands = more wins

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
God-awful? Did you even do any research on this, or is this just another off-the-cuff opinion based on a couple of episodes on ESPN? I'm not particularly a huge fan of Hellmuth, but "God-awful" is just a bit extreme, don't you think?

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You are correct. God-awful is extreme. However, given Phil's constant self-inclusion of himself as one of the top ten players in the world, my extremism is not so bad.

Phil Hellmuth POY standings
2004- 286
2005 - 1761

Not exactly God-awful but far from top shelf.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

I remember scouring Usenet articles by pro players and found the following thread (read "apryllshowers" post and paulp's reply, the last two messages in the thread)

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
An online pro like Thomas Keller probably averages over $1K per hour that he plays on the internet (and possibly a lot more than that as he 3 or 4 tables nosebleed games like 300/600). If he is in a tourney that costs $5K to enter, if he comes 2 hours late he has effectively slashed the entry fee dramatically. Starting a tourney with 95% of your chips but "paying" only 50% or 60% of the entry fee is a solid tradeoff. I'm not saying that they're actually playing online poker instead of showing up, it's just a thought.

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I understand what you're saying, but I really doubt that is the reason why, and it still wouldn't explain a lot because many of the big name pros seem to care more about the prestige of the WSOP than the money.

Re: Why do the pros show up to major tournaments late?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember scouring Usenet articles by pro players and found the following thread (read "apryllshowers" post and paulp's reply, the last two messages in the thread)

[/ QUOTE ]

very interesting read...thanks for the link.